the shooting party in scotland.

[scipio_usmc]

The only problem that I have is the fact that Sheila had told Doctor Ferguson that she could " kill her sons and also commit suicide ".
Those who say these things,,don't usually carry out their threats . Suicides come from those who you'd least expect as they never mention anything.

Much the same as Jeremy who'd allegedly said he could " kill his parents ".

She said they were things she tought about but she had these thoughts before she ever started her treatment.  These thoughts went away after her treatment and she had different issues during her relapses and second breakdown.  Her second breakdown the only person she talked about was Freddie who she had portrayed as the devil.  There is actually some logic in that though.  He was tempting her with sin through drugs and sex among other ways.   If she were going to have delusions of the devil and kill someone then it would be expected he would be the target.

But with her not doing anything to try to harm him or anyone else not even herself at these lows in her life then it is definitely not likely while she was on her medication.

The main paradim for suicide in schizophrenics is lone suicide not murder suicide.  Mostly it is men who commit murder suicide.  Mothers who commit murder suicide mainly kill their kids because they can't kill themselves knowing their kids will be out there alone without them to take care of them.  The obligation hangs over their head.  With the kids dead they have no obligation to live for.   Sometimes it is even to punish the father.  Fathers in contrast tend to kill the spouse and kids. 

A mother also killing her parents not just her kids doesn't fit the paradigm.  Those occasions parents are killed is typically when they are being cared for by the suicide victim.  Otherwise the parents are the target and the kids are left alone.       

Cases of mothers being so depressed they decide to kill not only themselves but also their kids and parents where the parents are not invalids and responsibility of the mother to care for just like her kids is virtually unheard of, I can't find any cases of such.

People who decide to kill themselves and want to take as many people as they can with them first because they want to go out with a bang seem to be what some males do for whatever reason.  Some blame video games, others TV others the fame they see in the press others receive for such. There is certainly no evidence that Sheila would have engaged in such.

It is easy to just make generalized claims about mental illness, suicide, murder and murder suicide but
there is a great deal of compexity in studying each and each is distinct. 

SOmething important to remember is that it is not an accident that most who commit suicide or murder as a result of mental illness were not being treated, stopped their treatment or were high on drugs/alcohol at the time.  That is why we don't just lock up eveyone with mental illness and never let them out.


 
 

[Jane]

Was there evidence that she was engaged in a sexual relationship with Freddie?

[Jane]

You're throwing around stats like you're reading them rote fashion. I rather get the impression that I've been involved in many more suicides than have you and the safest advice I was given was that one can't relay on facts and figures because they aren't human and aren't subject to the same pain and stresses.

[lookout]

Was there evidence that she was engaged in a sexual relationship with Freddie?

Somehow,,I personally would doubt very much if she was,,and possibly looked on him as being a " fatherly and protective " figure,,and someone she could lean on------------no strings attached.

[Jane]

Was there evidence that she was being supplied with drugs by Freddie?

[scipio_usmc]

You're throwing around stats like you're reading them rote fashion. I rather get the impression that I've been involved in many more suicides than have you and the safest advice I was given was that one can't relay on facts and figures because they aren't human and aren't subject to the same pain and stresses.

You have no evidence of any kind that Sheila fired a wepaon or killed anyone.

You are trying to use her mental health alone to suggest she di dit.

If you want to suggest her mental health makes it likely then you need stats and examples of people in similar situations and enough of them to make it likely she too would have resorted to same.

The fact of the matter is that most Schizophrenics who attempt to kill themselves or others do so prior to undergoing diagmosis and treatment, when they stop taking their medication daily or are high on narcotics/alcohol.

It is very rare for people who have been successfully treated, are religiously taking their medication and not high on drugs/alcohol to resort to violence at all let alone murder or suicide.

In those rare cases there is a progression that shows the treatment is no longer successful.

There is more though there are also paradigms of why people commit murder, commit suicide and murder-suicide. 

Suicide is a sign of giving up on life because the emotional or physical pain one goes through is too much for them to tolerate.  Murder is different from this and murder suicide different from both.

The murder suicide paradigm doesn't fit the bill here.

So nothing fits, there are problems on many levels not just 1.

She had delusions of everyone being the devil jut out of the blue though she wasn't having delusions about them even before she was treated successfully?   That is how the deaths of the entire family are being attributed?

Why would she kill herself though?  What delusion would account for that?

There is a reason why her doctor doesn't think she did it, why her husband doesn't think she did it and her remaining family (save Jeremy)  don't think she did it.  They are in a far better position than us to judge her specifically though if we look at the issue as a whole it supports them.

Who else agrees with them?  Objective people who have no reason to look at the issue in a biased manner.   One who face that people who are being successfully treated don't just snap out of the blue with no warning.  Moreover who honestly face the evidence proving Sheila can't have shot herself. 

Who disagrees?  Jeremy because he wants her to take the fall so he can get out of jail and placed the blame on her from the start to escape liability.  Who else?  Those who are biased in favor of Jeremy who are willing to ignore the evidence and declare the most unlikely series of events ever.

It owuld be bad enough for someoen on their medication to just snap out of the blue but for it to happen in the middle of the night where no one could provike it, to take the form of a murder suicide that doesn't make any sense from the murder suicide paradigm and a giant conspiracy with blood for the first time being planted in a suppressor by spraying it inside with all the police, family and Julie in some giant vast conspiracy- the odds of this all are astronomical.

[lookout]

Was there evidence that she was being supplied with drugs by Freddie?

That's a possibility,,but there's no way of finding out,,except through Jeremy perhaps.

[Alias]

You can get very "provoked" by sleepless nights alone with your psychotic thoughts.

[Alias]

Was there evidence that she was engaged in a sexual relationship with Freddie?

There are rumours, not sure there is any evidence.

[Jane]

You have no evidence of any kind that Sheila fired a wepaon or killed anyone.

You are trying to use her mental health alone to suggest she di dit.

If you want to suggest her mental health makes it likely then you need stats and examples of people in similar situations and enough of them to make it likely she too would have resorted to same.

The fact of the matter is that most Schizophrenics who attempt to kill themselves or others do so prior to undergoing diagmosis and treatment, when they stop taking their medication daily or are high on narcotics/alcohol.

It is very rare for people who have been successfully treated, are religiously taking their medication and not high on drugs/alcohol to resort to violence at all let alone murder or suicide.

In those rare cases there is a progression that shows the treatment is no longer successful.

There is more though there are also paradigms of why people commit murder, commit suicide and murder-suicide. 

Suicide is a sign of giving up on life because the emotional or physical pain one goes through is too much for them to tolerate.  Murder is different from this and murder suicide different from both.

The murder suicide paradigm doesn't fit the bill here.

So nothing fits, there are problems on many levels not just 1.

She had delusions of everyone being the devil jut out of the blue though she wasn't having delusions about them even before she was treated successfully?   That is how the deaths of the entire family are being attributed?

Why would she kill herself though?  What delusion would account for that?

There is a reason why her doctor doesn't think she did it, why her husband doesn't think she did it and her remaining family (save Jeremy)  don't think she did it.  They are in a far better position than us to judge her specifically though if we look at the issue as a whole it supports them.

Who else agrees with them?  Objective people who have no reason to look at the issue in a biased manner.   One who face that people who are being successfully treated don't just snap out of the blue with no warning.  Moreover who honestly face the evidence proving Sheila can't have shot herself. 

Who disagrees?  Jeremy because he wants her to take the fall so he can get out of jail and placed the blame on her from the start to escape liability.  Who else?  Those who are biased in favor of Jeremy who are willing to ignore the evidence and declare the most unlikely series of events ever.

It owuld be bad enough for someoen on their medication to just snap out of the blue but for it to happen in the middle of the night where no one could provike it, to take the form of a murder suicide that doesn't make any sense from the murder suicide paradigm and a giant conspiracy with blood for the first time being planted in a suppressor by spraying it inside with all the police, family and Julie in some giant vast conspiracy- the odds of this all are astronomical.

The murder suicide paradigm  May not fir, but that doesn't mean there has to be ANY precedent for tbhis to have happened.

WHY would she kill herself? If we leave out the paranoia, there's hopelessness and despair that thus far I don't believe you've commented on but I think it's fair to say that she probably felt as if her whole world had fallen apart. She was SO desperate for Christine's visit that she discharged herself early from hospital. The relationship didn't work. She was desperate to reconcile with Colin. It didn't work. He had deposited her at the place that she appeared to hate being in. Do you imagine she was thinking happy thoughts?

[lookout]

 Freddie also became a victim of Sheilas' illness,,as she'd said he was possessed by the Devil.

[grahameb]

You have no evidence of any kind that Sheila fired a wepaon or killed anyone.

You are trying to use her mental health alone to suggest she di dit.

If you want to suggest her mental health makes it likely then you need stats and examples of people in similar situations and enough of them to make it likely she too would have resorted to same.

The fact of the matter is that most Schizophrenics who attempt to kill themselves or others do so prior to undergoing diagmosis and treatment, when they stop taking their medication daily or are high on narcotics/alcohol.

It is very rare for people who have been successfully treated, are religiously taking their medication and not high on drugs/alcohol to resort to violence at all let alone murder or suicide.

In those rare cases there is a progression that shows the treatment is no longer successful.

There is more though there are also paradigms of why people commit murder, commit suicide and murder-suicide. 

Suicide is a sign of giving up on life because the emotional or physical pain one goes through is too much for them to tolerate.  Murder is different from this and murder suicide different from both.

The murder suicide paradigm doesn't fit the bill here.

So nothing fits, there are problems on many levels not just 1.

She had delusions of everyone being the devil jut out of the blue though she wasn't having delusions about them even before she was treated successfully?   That is how the deaths of the entire family are being attributed?

Why would she kill herself though?  What delusion would account for that?

There is a reason why her doctor doesn't think she did it, why her husband doesn't think she did it and her remaining family (save Jeremy)  don't think she did it.  They are in a far better position than us to judge her specifically though if we look at the issue as a whole it supports them.

Who else agrees with them?  Objective people who have no reason to look at the issue in a biased manner.   One who face that people who are being successfully treated don't just snap out of the blue with no warning.  Moreover who honestly face the evidence proving Sheila can't have shot herself. 

Who disagrees?  Jeremy because he wants her to take the fall so he can get out of jail and placed the blame on her from the start to escape liability.  Who else?  Those who are biased in favor of Jeremy who are willing to ignore the evidence and declare the most unlikely series of events ever.

It owuld be bad enough for someoen on their medication to just snap out of the blue but for it to happen in the middle of the night where no one could provike it, to take the form of a murder suicide that doesn't make any sense from the murder suicide paradigm and a giant conspiracy with blood for the first time being planted in a suppressor by spraying it inside with all the police, family and Julie in some giant vast conspiracy- the odds of this all are astronomical.

I believe that specialists are rather mixed up about this. Take it from some who knows first hand that what you are saying is complete bowlox. Schizophrenia is an extremely difficult illness to treat and quite often things do go wrong during the treatment and so the medication has to be changed. This is because of the extreme individuality of the disease. In short everyone is different and the different drugs and quantities of drugs produce varied side effects in the different individuals. It quite simply is not true that certain symptoms disappear when they get put on drugs. I'm afraid that your very words declare just how little you know about even the simpler things to do with mental illness.

[Alias]

I believe that specialists are rather mixed up about this. Take it from some who knows first hand that what you are saying is complete bowlox. Schizophrenia is an extremely difficult illness to treat and quite often things do go wrong during the treatment and so the medication has to be changed. This is because of the extreme individuality of the disease. In short everyone is different and the different drugs and quantities of drugs produce varied side effects in the different individuals. It quite simply is not true that certain symptoms disappear when they get put on drugs. I'm afraid that your very words declare just how little you know about even the simpler things to do with mental illness.

He won´t be listening - he´ll just repeat what he has said a gazillion times. Including the wrong dosage of Haldol he claims Sheila was on. He keeps shoving the same faulty claims down our throats till people tire of putting him right. Then he will return to the red forum to claim victory, and people there will applaud him sheepishly.

[Jan]

He won´t be listening - he´ll just repeat what he has said a gazillion times. Including the wrong dosage of Haldol he claims Sheila was on. He keeps shoving the same faulty claims down our throats till people tire of putting him right. Then he will return to the red forum to claim victory, and people there will applaud him sheepishly.

They have a very strange idea of victory.

And I totally agree with both of the last posts about spouting "facts" from experts and books. As we said before Scipio has no respect for those with personal experience on this forum , and choses to ignore their "real Life" knowledge. But ignore is what he choses to do. His loss - as far as I am concerned he can continue to lecture and not listen  that's his prerogative , but at least we are under no illusions about his motives. There are more than a few of us that read his "other" posts.

[scipio_usmc]

I believe that specialists are rather mixed up about this. Take it from some who knows first hand that what you are saying is complete bowlox. Schizophrenia is an extremely difficult illness to treat and quite often things do go wrong during the treatment and so the medication has to be changed. This is because of the extreme individuality of the disease. In short everyone is different and the different drugs and quantities of drugs produce varied side effects in the different individuals. It quite simply is not true that certain symptoms disappear when they get put on drugs. I'm afraid that your very words declare just how little you know about even the simpler things to do with mental illness.

Funny since you and others here are under the impression that it would make sense to suddenly go mad and become violent fo rth efirst time ever without any provocation and notice.

Eveyrone trying to defend Jeremy grossly misrepresents every aspect of this issue in order to make the simplistic claim that Sheila definitely did it because of mental illness.

The reality is that under 10 percent of Schizophrenics ever kill/atempt to kill anyone including themselves.  Virtually all of this small minority are either:

1) high/drunk at the time

2) were never diagnosed hence not under treatment

3) stopped taking their medication

I have issued a simple challenge tha tno one here is able to repsond to.

Post cases where a schizophrenic was being successfully treated, taking their medication without interruption, not high or drunk at the time and yet killed someone- either themselves or others.

If one is going to argue her illness makes it extremely likely she committed the crimes then there needs to be evidence it is extremely prevalent for such to occur with someone in her situation. 

No one can provide a single case that is comparable let alone many.

That is before event looking at the things in this case like the time of day which cautions against it.  She wa ssleeping and then just suddenly had delusions out of the blue where the whole family was the devil and wanted to kill them all while they were sleeping...

Sorry but no rational person who knows a thing about this subject buys what is being posted on this site about it. 

You also may not realize it or care but a great many people at large think that those who post here are crackpots for the ridiculous things posted.

The claims that the medical community support the claims being made here are not in the least bit true.
Her own doctor certainly doesn't support anything being claimed and many of his words are intentionally misrepresented to pretend she would have delusions that would warrant killing her family.

Worse though there is evidence that proves Sheila can't have killed herself and that there is no way this was even 1 case in a billion. 

That is addressed by other misrepresentations to try to pretend police shot her and there is some vast coverup of proportions larger than in UK history and the first time in history that blood would have been sprayed into a suppressor to plant blood to pretend it had been used.

It is easy to make up stories but when people make up stories they have no evidence to establish anything occurred and often make up stories that make no sense.

I see lots of stories being made up to try to get around evidence but never people following evidence where it leads because it leads to Jeremy and most people here don't want to accept the truth but rather to believe Jeremy is innocent no matter what it takes to pretend such.