Author Topic: the shooting party in scotland.  (Read 12925 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Alias

  • Editor
  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9435
  • What is in those 200 boxes?
Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #165 on: June 05, 2014, 10:55:PM »
God how I love it whent other people whom I´ve never met, who don´t read my posts properly and constantly mix me up with other people have the nerve to tell me what I think! Unbelievable!  ::)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 11:00:PM by Alias »

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #166 on: June 05, 2014, 11:03:PM »
 If he's the lawyer that he says he is,,then his PR is appalling and I'm surprised that his clients don't run for the hills and leave him to it.

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33781
Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #167 on: June 06, 2014, 07:23:AM »
What did she do to him?  Did she physically attack him?  nope Moreover, when did this supposedly happen?  While she was off her medication and taking drugs.


Did she physically attack him?  When did it happen?  Was this while she was on her Haldol and what evidence is there to estbalish this event and the full circumstances?

Peopl being terrified because they don't know what to do doesn't mean crap, the question is whether she physically attacked anyone and if so under what conditions and what precipitated it.

You are ignoring:

1) that while medicated successfully there are very few instances of violence and that with SHeila as others it is when they are off their meds or on drugs when problems result

2) even when off ther meds and on drugs things still set them off.  They don't just go looking to hurt people in their beds

3) that murder suicides are caused by something different than just plain murder or plain suicide

4) that there is evidence that proves beyond question that Sheila didn't kill herself because someone else moved her body very shortly after she died and put th esuppressor away


What does this have to do with whether she would kill anyone?  If anythign the fact she neglected her kids makes it even less likely she would kill if someone suggested they be part time foster cared.   


You ignore that she said these things before she was treated successfully in 1983 and that after such treatment she said no such thing ever again.  During her second stay she didn't even tlak about her family at all. You also ignore her doctor said even then he didn't feel she was capable of harming them or herself and felt even more strongly she was not at risk to hurt them or herself in 1985. WHo is in the best position to evaluate he rmental condition the doctor treating her or someone who didn't even meet her ever?


The one twisting is you. Colin said that after her second stay in the hospital her relationship improved with her mother because SHeila found religion and was able to bond with her mother over religion.  The reason she PREVIOUSLY hated being at WHF was allegedly because of her mother preached to her about sin.  In th emeantime why did she relaspse away form WHF?  Because while away from WHF she stopped taking her medication and was using narcotics.

The one ignoring the facts is you not me I considered everything together while you twist to look at outdated information and ignore the reasons for her past relapses to suit the agenda you insist you don't have but quite obviously do.

I am fully accurate that it is not probable based on her mental condition alone that she would kill anyone including herself.  Since it is not probable tha tmeans it is wrong for peopel to try to use just her mental condition alone as evidence that she likely did it.

But I discussed far more including the evidence that proves she didn't kill herself and was framed.

I considered everything from top to bottom about her CURRENT situation.

You didn't, you dragged out things she said prior to treatment instead of the most recent treatment where she didn't talk about her kids or family at all. You tossed out her relapses caused by not taking her medication and taking narcotics (while failing to take into account that was the reason for the relapses) and even about how she hated being preached to when she went to WHF IN THE PAST but most recently didn't mind because she became religious and bonded with June over it. 

I took into account everything while you cherry picked to try sto support the agenda you insist you don't have.

 
I read your posts and can see right through your bogus claims of objectivity.  I just demonstrated here and now how you ignore any evidence that cuts against what you want to pretend happened even if it means ignoring the most recent evidence and running with statements from Sheila before she was treated.

You also ignore evidence that proves she can't have killed herself.  That evidence and anything else is explained away as a grand conspiracy against Jeremy without an ounce of proof to establish the claim.

Nor is it ever explain how Nevill would have the opportunity to make a call let alone how and the entire timing of this overnight is never taken into account.



Whilst you're always in a hurry to point out what others, in your view, deliberately ignore, I've SEARCHED your lengthy post for some recognition of it, but it seems to me that YOU have chosen the path you accuse others of when it comes to acknowledging certain facts.

That you've not taken on board ALL the facts -or might that be those which don't work for you?- becomes clear when you ASK when was the incident where she attacked the tradesman in his car. I feel it wouldn't have taken much time to find out that it occurred on the Monday/Tuesday prior to the murders and June, who came to his rescue, explained that her daughter had FORGOTTEN TO TAKE HER MEDICATION. During this SAME visit, she's also run screaming from the monastery as if the hounds of hell were on her trail.

THIS, however, isn't the most important thing you've ignored, even though it's been spoken of frequently. Sheila's EMOTIONAL STATE. I'm not going to blame Dr F for overlooking it, because he wasn't aware of it but what I will say is, had she been one of MY clients, I would have been extremely concerned about the plans she had made on the grounds that she appears to be the only one who knew about them. Those who were to be players had no idea.

You can throw fact and figures at us until you're blue in the face. You can and DO jeer at our personal experiences as being of no value. That you disregard them because they don't fit with your facts makes me wonder if you would label a witness a liar because of it.

You run on about how stable was her medication. Are you psychic. By whose authority do you make such a sweeping claim. That you can't, or perhaps that SHOULD be DON'T, produce facts to say that people on meds CAN commit murder suicide, doesn't mean that it HASN'T happened/ WON'T ever happen. Such is the nature of mental illness.

The biggest and most glaringly obvious thing you've ignored is the change in Sheila's emotional and psychological state during the 18 from leaving the hospital until her death. I won't again go through the disappointing and heartbreaking events which caused the change because I imagine you're as aware of them as I. Where you also aware that despair and hopelessness are just as likely to be the cause of tragic events as schizophrenia?

Offline lebaleb

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 884
Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #168 on: June 06, 2014, 07:38:AM »
According to Scipio, it seems we can close all the mental hospitals and send the patients home. As long as they don't take drugs and keep on with their medication everything will be fine. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Doses of medication must be constantly fine tuned. Patients build up tolerance.
Schizophrenia is a chronic, severe, and disabling brain disorder that has affected people throughout history.

People with the disorder may hear voices other people don't hear. They may believe other people are reading their minds, controlling their thoughts, or plotting to harm them. This can terrify people with the illness and make them withdrawn or extremely agitated.

People with schizophrenia may not make sense when they talk. They may sit for hours without moving or talking. Sometimes people with schizophrenia seem perfectly fine until they talk about what they are really thinking.

Families and society are affected by schizophrenia too. Many people with schizophrenia have difficulty holding a job or caring for themselves, so they rely on others for help.

Treatment helps relieve many symptoms of schizophrenia, but most people who have the disorder cope with symptoms throughout their lives. It is an incurable condition.

Offline susan

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 16196
Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #169 on: June 06, 2014, 09:12:AM »
Morning lebabeb

excellent post hope you know who reads it and takes note.

Offline grahameb

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 11830
Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #170 on: June 06, 2014, 10:35:AM »
What did she do to him?  Did she physically attack him?  nope Moreover, when did this supposedly happen?  While she was off her medication and taking drugs.


Did she physically attack him?  When did it happen?  Was this while she was on her Haldol and what evidence is there to estbalish this event and the full circumstances?

Peopl being terrified because they don't know what to do doesn't mean crap, the question is whether she physically attacked anyone and if so under what conditions and what precipitated it.

You are ignoring:

1) that while medicated successfully there are very few instances of violence and that with SHeila as others it is when they are off their meds or on drugs when problems result

2) even when off ther meds and on drugs things still set them off.  They don't just go looking to hurt people in their beds

3) that murder suicides are caused by something different than just plain murder or plain suicide

4) that there is evidence that proves beyond question that Sheila didn't kill herself because someone else moved her body very shortly after she died and put th esuppressor away


What does this have to do with whether she would kill anyone?  If anythign the fact she neglected her kids makes it even less likely she would kill if someone suggested they be part time foster cared.   


You ignore that she said these things before she was treated successfully in 1983 and that after such treatment she said no such thing ever again.  During her second stay she didn't even tlak about her family at all. You also ignore her doctor said even then he didn't feel she was capable of harming them or herself and felt even more strongly she was not at risk to hurt them or herself in 1985. WHo is in the best position to evaluate he rmental condition the doctor treating her or someone who didn't even meet her ever?


The one twisting is you. Colin said that after her second stay in the hospital her relationship improved with her mother because SHeila found religion and was able to bond with her mother over religion.  The reason she PREVIOUSLY hated being at WHF was allegedly because of her mother preached to her about sin.  In th emeantime why did she relaspse away form WHF?  Because while away from WHF she stopped taking her medication and was using narcotics.

The one ignoring the facts is you not me I considered everything together while you twist to look at outdated information and ignore the reasons for her past relapses to suit the agenda you insist you don't have but quite obviously do.

I am fully accurate that it is not probable based on her mental condition alone that she would kill anyone including herself.  Since it is not probable tha tmeans it is wrong for peopel to try to use just her mental condition alone as evidence that she likely did it.

But I discussed far more including the evidence that proves she didn't kill herself and was framed.

I considered everything from top to bottom about her CURRENT situation.

You didn't, you dragged out things she said prior to treatment instead of the most recent treatment where she didn't talk about her kids or family at all. You tossed out her relapses caused by not taking her medication and taking narcotics (while failing to take into account that was the reason for the relapses) and even about how she hated being preached to when she went to WHF IN THE PAST but most recently didn't mind because she became religious and bonded with June over it. 

I took into account everything while you cherry picked to try sto support the agenda you insist you don't have.

 
I read your posts and can see right through your bogus claims of objectivity.  I just demonstrated here and now how you ignore any evidence that cuts against what you want to pretend happened even if it means ignoring the most recent evidence and running with statements from Sheila before she was treated.

You also ignore evidence that proves she can't have killed herself.  That evidence and anything else is explained away as a grand conspiracy against Jeremy without an ounce of proof to establish the claim.

Nor is it ever explain how Nevill would have the opportunity to make a call let alone how and the entire timing of this overnight is never taken into account.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wa8ErLKdGc

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #171 on: June 06, 2014, 12:19:PM »
 Two brilliant and informative posts to which nobody can argue with because both are correct in the explanation of this very very sad illness. God help those who are affected,,and also their carers who in some,,their lives have to be adjusted in so many ways in order to continue caring for them.
  Lives are changed dramatically.

Thankyou to April and lebaleb.

Offline grahameb

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 11830
Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #172 on: June 06, 2014, 01:36:PM »
Two brilliant and informative posts to which nobody can argue with because both are correct in the explanation of this very very sad illness. God help those who are affected,,and also their carers who in some,,their lives have to be adjusted in so many ways in order to continue caring for them.
  Lives are changed dramatically.

Thankyou to April and lebaleb.
I'm afraid these posts will fall upon deaf ears. For as we are all aware scipio knows everything, as he once had a girlfriend who was a nurse. Oh! And he's read extensively from Wikipedia. ;)

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #173 on: June 06, 2014, 01:55:PM »
Well that just about sums it up then.  ???   He doesn't need our input.  :)   He can solve it on his own.  ::)

If I were him I'd be less concerned with what I'd descended from, and more concerned with what I'd descended to.  ;D  Wikipedia ???

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33781
Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #174 on: June 06, 2014, 02:22:PM »
Well that just about sums it up then.  ???   He doesn't need our input.  :)   He can solve it on his own.  ::)

If I were him I'd be less concerned with what I'd descended from, and more concerned with what I'd descended to.  ;D  Wikipedia ???



Perhaps it was Scipio he had in mind when Disraeli said that there were three types of lies. There were lies, damn lies and statistics." The American psychologist Gordon Allport says "Each individual is an idiomatic breach of the syntax of the species" something, I imagine,  with which Scipio, who lumps us all into the statistics bracket,  would strongly disagree.

Offline scipio_usmc

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9502
Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #175 on: June 06, 2014, 06:04:PM »
You run on about how stable was her medication. Are you psychic. By whose authority do you make such a sweeping claim. That you can't, or perhaps that SHOULD be DON'T, produce facts to say that people on meds CAN commit murder suicide, doesn't mean that it HASN'T happened/ WON'T ever happen. Such is the nature of mental illness.

The fact it is EXCEEDINGLY rare means that you and everyone else here have no ability at all to say that her mental issues make her likely to have killed anyone.  You say she had mentla issues so she liekly did it in lieu of providing any evidence she did a thing. 

Even worse though you try to use the claim it theoretically is possible this was an exception to the rule someone refutes evidence tha tproves she didn't do it.

The biggest and most glaringly obvious thing you've ignored is the change in Sheila's emotional and psychological state during the 18 from leaving the hospital until her death. I won't again go through the disappointing and heartbreaking events which caused the change because I imagine you're as aware of them as I. Where you also aware that despair and hopelessness are just as likely to be the cause of tragic events as schizophrenia?

On the contrary I actually taking into account all aspects of her emotional state including changes occurring after her treatment, you don't.  I also respect the opinion of the doctor who treated her whereas you reject it in favor of opinions by people who neve rmet her and are in no position to challenge his assessments simply because you prefer to accecpt assessments that she could have killed.

Let's look again at the outright deception fo Jeremy supporters:

1) Cite things Sheila said and felt before she was treated for Schizohrenia.  She stopped having these delusions and fellings after being treated.  But Jeremy supporters say let's cite them anyway because they discuss her family and we want to believe she hurt her family.  At her second hospital stay she didn't mention her faily, no delusions about them or problems.  So the delusions she had that led to her second breakdown were not about her family. Since this hurts the claim she would harm her family Jeremy supporters ignore the present situation and harken back to 1983 delusions before she was treated.   

2) Similarly Jeremy supporters choose to ignore that she found religion and bonded with her mother over it and that according to Colin was closer to her than at any time he knew them.   This is very bad because this cuts against Sheila attacking her mother.  She was much closer to Nevill than her mother in the meantime.   So supporters harken back to claims about how Sheila would be upset after she returned home from WHF.  Why would she be upset?  Because her mother preached to her that sleepign around and doing drugs was sinful and she didn't want to hear it.  But alas she now was on the same page as her mother religion wise so had no reason to be upset about her preaching the last visit.

3) Supporters choose to ignore that she had relapses because she stopped taking her medication and/or was high on drugs.  She was on her medicaiton and not on narcotics or alcohol.  Therefore the circumstances that would make her relapse were not present.

4) That mothers who are depressed and decide to kill themselves do not take their entire family with them, if they do decide to commit suicide and take someone with them they choose their dependants. 

5) the treating doctor is the one in th ebes tposition to assess the likelihood of violence

All of these things matter if one wants to actually be accurate and honest.

The ignoring of evidence cherrypicking is being done by Jeremy Supporters ESPECIALLY evidence that Sheila can't have killed herself which means all the speculation is exceedingly worhtless.

Scenario:

Jack threatened to kill his father in front of witnesses.  Jack and his father have not been seen in days.  Witnesses tell police about the threat and that they are worried. Jack's and his father are found shot to death.  A rifle is found lying on Jack that later was ballisticly proven to have been the murder weapon.  Police see a hole in Jack's chest and assume he killed his father then committed suicide.  It is determined Jack was shot in the back and the bullet exited his chest. It is impossible that he shot himself in the back Jack was killed.  Neither have gunshot residue or any blood from the other on their clothing or body.  There is no evidence to establish Jack shot his father with the gun before someone took it from him and killed him with it.  Nor is there any evidence Jack's father shot Jack then someone took it from him and killed him with it.

Even though Jack threatened his father it is meaningless because he could not have killed himself and there is no evidence he killed his father.  Someone else walked away after killing him and this person also most likely killed his father.

The Bamber facts are similar except that Sheila didn't make any threats what is being used agaisnt Sheila is her mental state alone and that mental state is being misrepresented to falsely suggest it is likely that she did it but there is no such likelihood at all you need proof she did it and don't have such proof.

More importantly her mental state doesn't negate the fact she can't have killed herself.  You can distort her mental state as much as you like it still doesn't help establish she killed anyone.  She can't have killed herself, she was framed, Jeremy is the one who framed her and only the killer would frame her and be aware of the murders to have called police so that is why Jeremy will die in prison.

No amount of distortions about her mental state will have any ability to negate the evidence used to convict Jeremy.  A skilled lawyer recognizes that negating such evidence is the only way to get Jerey freed.  People who understand how evidence works and the concept of proof also understand this.

Biased people who don't want to face reality don't and spend their life twisting including twisting things that can't help prove their claims anyway. 


 
         
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #176 on: June 06, 2014, 07:34:PM »
 You're biased,,aren't you ?

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33781
Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #177 on: June 06, 2014, 07:49:PM »


On the contrary I actually taking into account all aspects of her emotional state including changes occurring after her treatment, you don't.  I also respect the opinion of the doctor who treated her whereas you reject it in favor of opinions by people who neve rmet her and are in no position to challenge his assessments simply because you prefer to accecpt assessments that she could have killed.

Let's look again at the outright deception fo Jeremy supporters:

1) Cite things Sheila said and felt before she was treated for Schizohrenia.  She stopped having these delusions and fellings after being treated.  But Jeremy supporters say let's cite them anyway because they discuss her family and we want to believe she hurt her family.  At her second hospital stay she didn't mention her faily, no delusions about them or problems.  So the delusions she had that led to her second breakdown were not about her family. Since this hurts the claim she would harm her family Jeremy supporters ignore the present situation and harken back to 1983 delusions before she was treated.   

2) Similarly Jeremy supporters choose to ignore that she found religion and bonded with her mother over it and that according to Colin was closer to her than at any time he knew them.   This is very bad because this cuts against Sheila attacking her mother.  She was much closer to Nevill than her mother in the meantime.   So supporters harken back to claims about how Sheila would be upset after she returned home from WHF.  Why would she be upset?  Because her mother preached to her that sleepign around and doing drugs was sinful and she didn't want to hear it.  But alas she now was on the same page as her mother religion wise so had no reason to be upset about her preaching the last visit.

3) Supporters choose to ignore that she had relapses because she stopped taking her medication and/or was high on drugs.  She was on her medicaiton and not on narcotics or alcohol.  Therefore the circumstances that would make her relapse were not present.

4) That mothers who are depressed and decide to kill themselves do not take their entire family with them, if they do decide to commit suicide and take someone with them they choose their dependants. 

5) the treating doctor is the one in th ebes tposition to assess the likelihood of violence

All of these things matter if one wants to actually be accurate and honest.

 


 
       



You most emphatically are not taking into account ALL aspects of her mental and psychological health. To my knowledge you have never once engaged in ANY discussion regarding those things which transpired between her leaving hospital and her death.

1. She did NOT stop having delusions after being treated. She was readmitted to hospital during which time she wrote Ann and one of the things she said was that "God had a purpose for her" and "all people are evil and should die" She didn't actually specify that this DIDN't include her family.

2. She FOUND religion!!!! She'd had religion rammed down her throat all her life  -POSSIBLY in the hope it would cure her of her greatest sin, her illegitimacy- it had never left her.

3. You KNOW what I think of YOUR views about her meds. NO point in saying that MY expert disagrees with YOUR expert. FACT. Experts DO disagree.

4. There isn't a book of guidelines for those who contemplate suicide. If a person is that desperate it's possible that they'll prevent anyone stopping them by any means possible.

5. I agree the treating doctor WOULD have been the best person to assess her HAD he been treating her but he hadn't seen her for 18 weeks and he didn't even know what dosage of meds she was on.

You ARE correct when you say that these things matter if one wants to be accurate and honest. I'm not entirely convinced that you are 100% either, despite that you're capable of pulling facts from the either like they're going out of fashion and tarring all the mentally ill with the same brush. You accuse us of BS. I imagine that you're far better placed to deliver it than are we because we can't prove what you're doing.