Author Topic: the shooting party in scotland.  (Read 12943 times)

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Offline Jane

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Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #120 on: June 02, 2014, 06:11:PM »
Nah, he´s trying to dig up something to counter ths. He shouldn´t be talking to me though, he has this very low opinion of me! Don´t know why he bothers, he must be really bored.  :P




Alias HI :) I can't help feeling that whatever you think his opinion is of you it is matched equally by yours of him ;D

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #121 on: June 02, 2014, 06:13:PM »
http://www.stopshrinks.org/reading_room/drugs/dark_side_1.htm

Read it all. In case you are too lazy:

Killers on psychiatric drugs

Another article published in the American Journal of Forensic Psychiatry described five cases of extreme acts of physical violence caused by Haldol. In the first, a 23-year-old male with a history of developing severe symptoms of akathisia after being given Haldol was injected with the drug in the admissions room of a psychiatric unit.

After the injection, the man escaped, ran to a park, disrobed, and tried to rape a woman. "When pulled off by the husband, he proceeded down the street, broke down the front door of a house where an 81-yearold lady was sleeping. He severely beat her with his fists, 'to a pulp,' by his own description, following which he found knives and stabbed her repeatedly, resulting in her death." He then ran into another woman who was with her child and "repeatedly stabbed the woman in front of the child, where upon he moved on to he next person he encountered, a woman whom he severely assaulted and stabbed to the extent that an eye was lost and an opening into the anus was created resulting in major surgery."

The report describes four other cases of violence attributed to akathisia caused by Haldol. One was a suicide. Another was a suicide attempt in which a man stabbed himself repeatedly and later remarked that "he could never even feel the knife when stabbing himself." The third was a man who beat his mother to death with a hammer.

In the fourth case, a man "had been receiving Haldol as an outpatient for approximately four months and described how progressively his head was rushing, that he felt speeded up, that he was in great pain in his head and had an impulse to stab someone to try to get rid of the pain. He went to the nearby grocery store he frequented on a regular basis and impulsively and repeatedly stabbed the grocer whom he had known for some time."

Many similar acts of violence have been linked with these psychiatric drugs. One example is the 1989 case of David Peterson, who walked out of a mental institution in Middletown, Conn., bought a hunting knife, and then stabbed a nine-year-old girl 34 times, killing her. Peterson said he killed the girl to get back at his psychiatrist for not changing the drug he was being given, a major tranquilizer, that was causing him "pain."


I already read it when posted last time. 

None of these people were on Haloperidol for any length of time (save one MAYBEE) let alone alone months, were on a combination of drugs not just Haloperidol and were not given the idela dosages of 50-100MG.

None of these people were sucessfully treated using Haloperidol and then released.

The first example featured someone with a history of mental problems who was having a psychotic episode being given an unspecified dosage of Haloperidol in combination with who knws what else and supposedly this made him even more agitated.   

What is this supposed to prove?  It certianly doesn't prove that someone on 100MG or more of Haloperidol for months is likely to suddenly become violent out of the blue and to kill. 

The second example involved a man who was given a low dose along with other drugs.   

He had been getting progressively worse for days and presuamly would have killed someone including possibly himself anyway.  There is no evidence the drugs caused him to resort to violence as opposed to failing to stop him from doing what he would have done anyway. 

Sheila was given a large dose and did not respond by killing herself. She responded well to treatment so that after 5 weeks she was released.  That some people kill themselves before they can be successfully treated has little bearing on whether someone who responds well to treatment would be likely to kill anyone.

Case 3 is little better.

A person with a history of violence who was on several drugs not just low dose Haloperidol and like the drugs before the low does Haloperidol failed to help him so he ended up killing himself.

Case 4

A man who threatened to kill his mother in the past actually did it.  He had a psychotic episode, was quickly released after receiving low dose Haloperidol and it failed to stop him from having delusions and he then killed his mother.

Case 5

Claims he was on Haloperidol for months but doesn't reveal the dosage or how and whether he was actually making his medicaiton.  He had a whole series of problem and history of crime.  He claied Haldol made him stab someone but where is the evidence?  Just claiming it in court to try to get off doesn't mean squat. 

Identify a case where someone on 50-100MG of Haldol after being successfully treated relapsed and killed anyone other than if they stopped taking their medication or were high on narcotics or alcohol at th etime.

Cases where someone was already agitated treated 1-2 times with a low does among other drugs and it failed to help doesn't cut it.

Nor does some unspecified case that claims there was treatement for several months but no mention of dose, other drugs and whether the person stopped taking their medication periodically.   

Sheila had no history of violence, had relapses in the past while high and or off her medicaiton (still without resorting to violence even at these times) and had been successfully treated for months and she was only ONLY 100MG of Haldol not any other counter drug at the time of the murders.  Try to find examples of someone in similar circumstances who did not stop taking their medication, and wa snot high on drugs or alcohol who resorted to murder or attempted murder and it was attributed to the Haldol or in spite of the Haldol by the medical personnel in the case.

« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 06:14:PM by scipio_usmc »
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Alias

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Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #122 on: June 02, 2014, 06:18:PM »



Alias HI :) I can't help feeling that whatever you think his opinion is of you it is matched equally by yours of him ;D

You are a sharp lady!  ;D

Offline Jane

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Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #123 on: June 02, 2014, 06:27:PM »
I already read it when posted last time. 

None of these people were on Haloperidol for any length of time (save one MAYBEE) let alone alone months, were on a combination of drugs not just Haloperidol and were not given the idela dosages of 50-100MG.

None of these people were sucessfully treated using Haloperidol and then released.

The first example featured someone with a history of mental problems who was having a psychotic episode being given an unspecified dosage of Haloperidol in combination with who knws what else and supposedly this made him even more agitated.   

What is this supposed to prove?  It certianly doesn't prove that someone on 100MG or more of Haloperidol for months is likely to suddenly become violent out of the blue and to kill. 

The second example involved a man who was given a low dose along with other drugs.   

He had been getting progressively worse for days and presuamly would have killed someone including possibly himself anyway.  There is no evidence the drugs caused him to resort to violence as opposed to failing to stop him from doing what he would have done anyway. 

Sheila was given a large dose and did not respond by killing herself. She responded well to treatment so that after 5 weeks she was released.  That some people kill themselves before they can be successfully treated has little bearing on whether someone who responds well to treatment would be likely to kill anyone.

Case 3 is little better.

A person with a history of violence who was on several drugs not just low dose Haloperidol and like the drugs before the low does Haloperidol failed to help him so he ended up killing himself.

Case 4

A man who threatened to kill his mother in the past actually did it.  He had a psychotic episode, was quickly released after receiving low dose Haloperidol and it failed to stop him from having delusions and he then killed his mother.

Case 5

Claims he was on Haloperidol for months but doesn't reveal the dosage or how and whether he was actually making his medicaiton.  He had a whole series of problem and history of crime.  He claied Haldol made him stab someone but where is the evidence?  Just claiming it in court to try to get off doesn't mean squat. 

Identify a case where someone on 50-100MG of Haldol after being successfully treated relapsed and killed anyone other than if they stopped taking their medication or were high on narcotics or alcohol at th etime.

Cases where someone was already agitated treated 1-2 times with a low does among other drugs and it failed to help doesn't cut it.

Nor does some unspecified case that claims there was treatement for several months but no mention of dose, other drugs and whether the person stopped taking their medication periodically.   

Sheila had no history of violence, had relapses in the past while high and or off her medicaiton (still without resorting to violence even at these times) and had been successfully treated for months and she was only ONLY 100MG of Haldol not any other counter drug at the time of the murders.  Try to find examples of someone in similar circumstances who did not stop taking their medication, and wa snot high on drugs or alcohol who resorted to murder or attempted murder and it was attributed to the Haldol or in spite of the Haldol by the medical personnel in the case.



You seem to be under the impression that just because previous psychotic episodes haven't been violent, neither will future episodes be. This isn't NECESSARILY so. MOST violent episodes seem to take the medical profession by surprise. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that an incident resulting in someone's -family members OR total strangers- couldn't have been predicted.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #124 on: June 02, 2014, 06:45:PM »


You seem to be under the impression that just because previous psychotic episodes haven't been violent, neither will future episodes be. This isn't NECESSARILY so. MOST violent episodes seem to take the medical profession by surprise. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that an incident resulting in someone's -family members OR total strangers- couldn't have been predicted.

There is a progression and this among a host of other things is how doctors treating them assess whether they are likely to commit suicide or kill. 

I didn't create a hard challenge.  Identify specific cases where Schizophrenics being treated successfully who didn't stop taking their medication and wasn't high killed someone or tried to kill someone as a result of their illness.  I coudl make it more complex by asking for examples of people who were judged by their doctors not to be a candiate for suicide or murder and on 100MG of Haloperidol.  I didn't do so until people kept attacking Haldol in particualr claiming it causes such.

If things are as people here claim that there was a good risk of this happening there should be plenty of examples. 

The truth is that it is exceedingly rare for people with no history of violence and deemed not at risk for suicide or murder by their doctors to attempt such, most who attempt to kill someone are people who were never treated at all, not taking their medicaiton regularly or high at the time that should tell you something.

It means it is unlikely that someone in Sheila's position would do so and just claiming she likely did it because she was being treated for Schizophrenia and on 100MG of haldol falls FAR short.

 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline lookout

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Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #125 on: June 02, 2014, 06:53:PM »
 The only problem that I have is the fact that Sheila had told Doctor Ferguson that she could " kill her sons and also commit suicide ".
Those who say these things,,don't usually carry out their threats . Suicides come from those who you'd least expect as they never mention anything.

Much the same as Jeremy who'd allegedly said he could " kill his parents ".

Offline Alias

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Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #126 on: June 02, 2014, 06:56:PM »
The only problem that I have is the fact that Sheila had told Doctor Ferguson that she could " kill her sons and also commit suicide ".
Those who say these things,,don't usually carry out their threats . Suicides come from those who you'd least expect as they never mention anything.

Much the same as Jeremy who'd allegedly said he could " kill his parents ".

Actually you should watch out if people say they consider suicide - often they do carry it out. My dad was one of them.

Offline lookout

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Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #127 on: June 02, 2014, 07:00:PM »
 I'm going to look into that,Alias. I've heard of it being a cry for help for the very fact they mentioned it,,but don't carry it out.

Offline Jane

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Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #128 on: June 02, 2014, 07:04:PM »
There is a progression and this among a host of other things is how doctors treating them assess whether they are likely to commit suicide or kill. 

I didn't create a hard challenge.  Identify specific cases where Schizophrenics being treated successfully who didn't stop taking their medication and wasn't high killed someone or tried to kill someone as a result of their illness.  I coudl make it more complex by asking for examples of people who were judged by their doctors not to be a candiate for suicide or murder and on 100MG of Haloperidol.  I didn't do so until people kept attacking Haldol in particualr claiming it causes such.

If things are as people here claim that there was a good risk of this happening there should be plenty of examples. 

The truth is that it is exceedingly rare for people with no history of violence and deemed not at risk for suicide or murder by their doctors to attempt such, most who attempt to kill someone are people who were never treated at all, not taking their medicaiton regularly or high at the time that should tell you something.

It means it is unlikely that someone in Sheila's position would do so and just claiming she likely did it because she was being treated for Schizophrenia and on 100MG of haldol falls FAR short.

 




Then WHY do we keep hearing that these tragedies "could not have been predicted"? I'm not certain if it even matters to you if all the fact and figures are true that you throw at us but of one thing I remain convinced, and that is that you can't say with 100% accuracy that it would have been totally impossible for Sheila to have committed this act.

Offline Alias

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Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #129 on: June 02, 2014, 07:08:PM »
I'm going to look into that,Alias. I've heard of it being a cry for help for the very fact they mentioned it,,but don't carry it out.

Also had a friend who slit his own throat. His brother and a friend stayed with him for two days and two nights without sleeping. He kept rambling about wanting to kill himself. They took him to an emergency ward, they wouldn´t help, so home again with him. Eventually they got exhausted and fell asleep - and he did it. Horrid. He was such a nice guy.  :'(

Offline lookout

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Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #130 on: June 02, 2014, 07:08:PM »
I'm going to look into that,Alias. I've heard of it being a cry for help for the very fact they mentioned it,,but don't carry it out.





Okay,,after reading a professors point of view who stated that it MUST be taken seriously.
What is your view on Doctor Ferguson who DIDN'T take it seriously ?

Offline Jane

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Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #131 on: June 02, 2014, 07:12:PM »




Okay,,after reading a professors point of view who stated that it MUST be taken seriously.
What is your view on Doctor Ferguson who DIDN'T take it seriously ?


Lookout, it may simply be a question of mental health being such a grey area that one rule doesn't apply to all, but no one knows it until it's too late.

Offline Alias

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Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #132 on: June 02, 2014, 07:13:PM »




Okay,,after reading a professors point of view who stated that it MUST be taken seriously.
What is your view on Doctor Ferguson who DIDN'T take it seriously ?

I think that Dr. Ferguson was very busy washing his own hands after the tragedy! He should have reacted to a lot of things Sheila said and did. For that reason I don´t put too much credence into what HE claimed about Sheila. All that was to  divert any negligence from himself. In my opinion.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 07:15:PM by Alias »

Offline Jane

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Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #133 on: June 02, 2014, 07:17:PM »
I think that Dr. Ferguson was very busy washing his own hands after the tragedy! He should have reacted to a lot of things Sheila said and did. For that reason I don´t have too much credence into what HE claimed about Sheila. All that was to  divert any negligence from himself. In my opinion.



Alias, I've had it told me, that in health care NO ONE splits on a colleague because the next time it could be THEIR neck on the block

Offline lookout

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Re: the shooting party in scotland.
« Reply #134 on: June 02, 2014, 07:18:PM »
 If Doctor Ferguson didn't act on that threat,,where else had he gone wrong ?

 This is always supposing that Sheila took her own life after threatening to do so. ( though I believe she was killed ) It gets a tad complicated,,but depends what you believe,as one thing contradicts the other.