the shooting party in scotland.

[Patti]

The desperate fallback position when Jeremy supporters can't produce any evidence she actually ever did use a gun.  Equally, there is no such evidence that she never used a gun. However, there is fingerprint evidence that she had touched two of the guns at WHF. This can't be ignored in my opinion.

One which ignores that just living on a farm doesn't mean one has used a guns and morover guns are different and knowing how to use one doesn't make one able to use all by any stretch. this depends how NB raised his children. I would have thought that the farm being a family business and the fact he had two children it was highly likely that he taught his children all aspects of farming life and that included the use of guns which is a way of life in the farming community. To state categorically that Sheila never picked up a gun or watched her father shoot is absolutely bonkers!
The lack of knowledge that a round needs to be chambered let alone how to do so results in this:

"As Ford drew near, Fromme pulled a .45-caliber semiautomatic pistol, aimed it at the president and pulled the trigger. Witnesses nearby heard the "click" of the hammer dropping. Secret Service agents later found that the pistol had four rounds in its magazine, but the chamber was empty.

Agents swarmed Fromme and wrestled the weapon from her hand as she shouted, "Don't get excited! It didn't go off! It didn't go off!"

http://www.sfgate.com/nation/article/Would-be-assassin-Squeaky-Fromme-is-paroled-3221893.php

As significant or even moreso is whether she had any interest in guns and would be likely to go for one as opposed to her weapon of choice in the past and the preferred weapon of women- pots/pans.

[scipio_usmc]

Equally, there is no such evidence that she never used a gun. However, there is fingerprint evidence that she had touched two of the guns at WHF. This can't be ignored in my opinion

The burden is on those asserting she did to prove it.  I don't need to prove  anegativ ebut no one seeing her use one not even Jeremy is strong evidence it never happened.

Moreover, it is necessary to establish she used a gun with the same mechanics as the murder weapon because that is the only way she would know how to use the murder weapon.  Using a shotgun would not make her know how to use the murder weapon.

I have yet to see any evidence of fingerprints on any wepaon but the murder weapon and that print likely got there by the killer placing her hand against it.

More important is the lack of any evidence she fired the gun and lack of victim blood on her.  A fingerprint can be planted by placing a hand against something, back spatter can't be easily planted.

She bashed the crap out of Nevill without getting any of his blood on her clothing and hands (and without brekaing any nails though the rifle stock broke), shot victims without getting any back spatter on herself though it was on the weapon and no GSR or even elevated lead levels on her hands. 

These are all proven negatives which are devasating to the claim she did a thing and that is before looking at the evidence that proves she can't have killed herself.

this depends how NB raised his children. I would have thought that the farm being a family business and the fact he had two children it was highly likely that he taught his children all aspects of farming life and that included the use of guns which is a way of life in the farming community. To state categorically that Sheila never picked up a gun or watched her father shoot is absolutely bonkers!

There is no evidence at all he taught her to shoot.  Moreover, watching someone shoot a gun at some point doesn't mean one will know how to load and operate that gun let alone ones that function differently.

[Patti]

The burden is on those asserting she did to prove it.  I don't need to prove  anegativ ebut no one seeing her use one not even Jeremy is strong evidence it never happened.

Moreover, it is necessary to establish she used a gun with the same mechanics as the murder weapon because that is the only way she would know how to use the murder weapon.  Using a shotgun would not make her know how to use the murder weapon.  I have said this before after consulting a qualified nurse who looks after people that suffer from schizophrenia.  One has to thoroughly understand this illness in its entirety. Under a delusion one has no idea of the situation they are in. They are unaware of anything that is happening around them. They don't consider themselves that they are in any danger or for that matter that anyone else is in danger. To them they are going along within a fantasy world made of mixed emotions. They sometimes see themselves as god or another person who they have associated with in the past. To them they are not killers they are carrying out actions related to voices. If Sheila had the rifle in her hand and she was playing god then it was not her that was committing any crime it was the rifle. In the minds of those that suffer this illness they are simply carrying out what the voices are telling them.  In their minds they are doing those they kill a favour they are releasing them to a better world.  If you don't understand this then I can't keep explaining. I do wish that people would do some research on this. It is not impossible for Sheila to have used a rifle. To say she could not use a gun is somewhat ridiculous, she was an adult of 27 years old. Not all killers practice shoot prior to using a gun, they buy one and shoot it. One doens;t go on a course in the country to learn...its not rocket science. 

I have yet to see any evidence of fingerprints on any wepaon but the murder weapon and that print likely got there by the killer placing her hand against it. It is documented in the COLP report.

More important is the lack of any evidence she fired the gun and lack of victim blood on her.  A fingerprint can be planted by placing a hand against something, back spatter can't be easily planted. Yes a print can be planted.

She bashed the crap out of Nevill without getting any of his blood on her clothing and hands (and without brekaing any nails though the rifle stock broke), shot victims without getting any back spatter on herself though it was on the weapon and no GSR or even elevated lead levels on her hands. 

These are all proven negatives which are devasating to the claim she did a thing and that is before looking at the evidence that proves she can't have killed herself.

There is no evidence at all he taught her to shoot.  Moreover, watching someone shoot a gun at some point doesn't mean one will know how to load and operate that gun let alone ones that function differently.

I've never seen so many questions in one post lol I think you ought to have more sex....its not doing you any good. lol 

[scipio_usmc]

I've never seen so many questions in one post lol I think you ought to have more sex....its not doing you any good. lol 

Well I have spoken to medical personnel as well.  There are any different kinds of delusions.

None that I spoke of think that someone on 100MG of Haloperidol would be likely to relapse in the middle of the night suddenly.  They speak about a progression and that this relapses almost always happen when people stop treatment or are high on drugs.

The most important doctor is her own he knew her so could speak best about her state of mind.  Her own doctor insists she was not at risk to harm herself or others.  She didn't harm anyone even in her worst state.  The only person she mentioned as being a devil was Freddie, who was corrupting her with drugs and sex.  She didn't speak of her family the 5 weeks of her treatment.

In the meantime once again that is where Jeremy's apolgists hang heir hat trying to say she would do it in lieu of proving she did.  I layed out the prosecutions case against her if she had survived and no way would she be able to be convicted as a result of it.

The simple truth is as follows and it is absolutely devastating to your postion:

1) Sheila can't have killed herself and the rest without getting some GSR and spatter from the victims on her clothing and body and also elevated lead levels on her hands. There was both medium and high velocity spatter on the gun she woudl have had both on her clothign and body.

2) She would have had some damage to her body fromt he scuffle with Nevill especially broken nails.  The notion she could have wielded the rifle without brekaing her nails is ludicrous in light of the fact the stock even broke

3) Sheila can't have killed herself. It is impossible for her to have shot herself with the suppressor and put it away and it is impossible for her to have moved her body flat after she died.  She was seated when shot then moved shortly thereafter.

Jeremy's apologists deny there was a struggle and made up countless other tales to try to explain away the lack of evidence but none of it holds any water and no evidence at all has been put forth to dent any of the points above.   

Saying one believes the evidence was planted is not proof and frankly is ridiculous in light of the fact there has never been a documented case of back spatter being planted in a suppressor or rifle and the manner in which someone would do it if they bothered would be to pour it in wiht a vial or use a dropper not spray it.  The defense's own expert found microscopic blood drops the simplistic claims a chip of blood was placed inside or got in by accident doesn't work because the defense's own findigns destroyed any chance of claiming accidental contamination. 

There is no hope of ever establishing Jeremy is innocent because he isn't, the evidence used against him was solid.

The best anyone can do is make the unsupported allegation that evidence was planted.  I hear the same thing over and over how others have the right to their opinion.  Yes people have the right to believe any unsuported opinion they desire but opinions that are unsupported are not rational and ost certianly can't be used to establish the opinion is true.  It amounts to people taking a leap of faith because of bias and nothing more.

As for Sheila's prints this is the only thing I have seen put up as evidence to suggest Sheila's print was found on other guns but this falls far short of saying anything about Sheila:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3320.msg130420.html#msg130420

Unless actual documents can be posted to establish it then the claim is another unsupported claim. 

This thread is about the shooting party though.  I am still waiting to see evidence regarding Colin in relation to such.  First DB was relied on but I posted his actual testimony and it was a bust for the defense. He didn't claim he saw her shoot or took her shooting.  He said no at first then under pressure said maybe it happened but he didn't think so and couldn't recall it ever happening.  People keep claiming Colin can establish the claim true but I have yet to see it. 

His statements to police didn't mention a thing about such.  I wonder why his supplemental statement is not in the library here. That is the one where he mentions things like Sheila had been going to bed early lately and didn't have a relationship with her brother and didn't even like it that he was the one Colin arranged to drive her home.  It's also where he talked about June and Sheila bonding over religion.  I didn't really say much of use.  I read it almost 2 months ago somewhere so it had to be available online but for some reason doesn't seem to be on this site.  Is there more than one section for transcripts here?

[Adam]

There is no proof Sheila knew how to load a rifle. Scipio said it is not easy to do this.

Besides no one can even explain what Sheila was doing when Neville made his mysterious phone call to Jeremy.

[Adam]

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5175.0.html

[lebaleb]

The simple truth is as follows and it is absolutely devastating to your postion:

1) Sheila can't have killed herself and the rest without getting some GSR and spatter from the victims on her clothing and body and also elevated lead levels on her hands. There was both medium and high velocity spatter on the gun she woudl have had both on her clothign and body.

The clothing soaking in buckets were not tested. She could have changed her clothes, had a shower and put on a clean nightdress before shooting herself.

2) She would have had some damage to her body fromt he scuffle with Nevill especially broken nails.  The notion she could have wielded the rifle without brekaing her nails is ludicrous in light of the fact the stock even broke
 
She managed to gouge Neville's arm without breaking her nails. As for the 'scuffle' it never happened.

3) Sheila can't have killed herself. It is impossible for her to have shot herself with the suppressor and put it away and it is impossible for her to have moved her body flat after she died.  She was seated when shot then moved shortly thereafter.

The silencer was not attached when she shot herself. She was seated for the first shot after which the pathologist says she could have walked about for some time. IMO she sat reading the bible before the second shot.

[Adam]

There is no evidence she showered and changed her clothing while in a mad rage.  Then strangly put them in a bucket.

How is taking her clothes off and putting on a flimsy nightie part of a ritulistic killing ? Which some of Jeremys supporters claim happened.

She was found in her nightie. Women usually sleep in their nighties.

Susan said there would still be GSR on Sheila after a shower.

[Adam]

41. Nevill Bamber, who was wearing his pyjamas had been shot eight times. There were two wounds to the right side and two to the top of the head. If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation. There was a wound to the left side of the lip and another to the left part of the lower jaw. This injury caused severe fracturing of the jaw, of the teeth in that area and damaged soft tissue in the neck and the larynx. These features of this particular injury and the resultant flow of blood into the mouth meant, in the pathologist's opinion, that Nevill Bamber would not have been able to engage in purposeful talk. There were also gunshot wounds to the left shoulder and a grazing wound above the left elbow.

42. The examination of Nevill Bamber's body also revealed black eyes and a broken nose, linear bruising to the cheeks, lacerations to the head, linear type bruising to the right forearm, bruising to the left wrist and forearm and three circular burn type marks to the back. The linear marks were consistent with Mr Bamber having been struck with a long blunt object, possibly a gun.


Upturned and smashed furniture. A dead man. No kitchen fight ?

Whoever followed who downstairs. Their intention was not to have a nice chat.

[Adam]

The pathologist said the shock and pain of the first shot would have basically immobilised her.

She certainly would not have gone downstairs to hide the silencer in a box at the back of the gun cupboard. Why not just take the silencer off and leave it lying next to her ?

An expert has suggested Sheilas legs were pulled after the second shot. Jeremys supporters either claim the expert is wrong. Or the police pulled Sheilas legs for some reason. Both weak.

[Jane]

Patti/Scipio, good morning Bet you never thought you'd end up together in the same bed!!! I read what you both said with some amusement. You are both talking about the same illness and yet you have both found professionals with polarized views of it. It would appear to be a microcosm of what the entire case is about, wouldn't it.

I probably won't come as much surprise, but from my own knowledge of schizophrenia  -gained during training and meeting with mothers of schizophrenics AND assisting with an academic paper on the links between schizophrenia and adopted children- I'm inclined to agree with what Patti says.

Scipio, I'm sure you couldn't possibly have, but you don't seem to have taken on board that whilst medication is stable, the human condition ISN'T, which is why it can be incredibly difficult to keep tabs on some who have this condition and SO important that contact with the patient is maintained. The patient's emotional/psychological state is KEY. In the same way that the cover given by the contraceptive pill can be diminished by certain other medication/illness, the effects of anti psychotics can be altered by the patient's life circumstances. Monitoring isn't done for fun, it's an integral part of ensuring that the patient stays balanced and safe. In the 18 weeks from leaving hospital to her death, Sheila WAS failed. The psych. nurses who failed to visit her would undoubtedly have picked up that something was wrong -no one off, this. It's STILL happening- so this poor woman who already had severe mental problems -INFORMATION ALERT, Scipio. Schizophrenia comes like pregnancy, you are or you aren't. There are no varying degrees- was left floundering with HUGE emotional problems that would have had the sanest of us in a tailspin. Whilst I appreciate that this MAY not make her guilty, I find very sad the way you appear to be dismissive of her situation in order to show her as being innocent.

[Patti]

Well I have spoken to medical personnel as well.  There are any different kinds of delusions. But,in this case Sheila's delusions were documented. Surely I don't need to tell you what those delusions were, for it upsets me to repeat them.

None that I spoke of think that someone on 100MG of Haloperidol would be likely to relapse in the middle of the night suddenly.  They speak about a progression and that this relapses almost always happen when people stop treatment or are high on drugs. Scorpio Not sure of what you are saying or if you are agreeing that a relapsed is possible.  Sheila had relapsed on 200mg of Haloperidol in March 1985 so one cannot say that she was unable to relapse on 100mg. There is documented evidence that Sheila relapsed mainly during the early hours of morning. This was the case in March.

The most important doctor is her own he knew her so could speak best about her state of mind.  Her own doctor insists she was not at risk to harm herself or others.  She didn't harm anyone even in her worst state.  The only person she mentioned as being a devil was Freddie, who was corrupting her with drugs and sex.  She didn't speak of her family the 5 weeks of her treatment. Sorry Scorpio, but her two boys had been harmed, albeit not physically but mentally. The school were concerned about their welfare and communicated this concern to their father. So to say people were not hurt they were hurt, maybe they felt that helpless because she could not be helped. Her doctors, admitted that she missed appointments, and failed to take drugs to help her improve her health. 

In the meantime once again that is where Jeremy's apolgists hang heir hat trying to say she would do it in lieu of proving she did.  I layed out the prosecutions case against her if she had survived and no way would she be able to be convicted as a result of it.

The simple truth is as follows and it is absolutely devastating to your postion:

1) Sheila can't have killed herself and the rest without getting some GSR and spatter from the victims on her clothing and body and also elevated lead levels on her hands. There was both medium and high velocity spatter on the gun she woudl have had both on her clothign and body. This is bothers me if truth be known

2) She would have had some damage to her body fromt he scuffle with Nevill especially broken nails.  The notion she could have wielded the rifle without brekaing her nails is ludicrous in light of the fact the stock even broke. So would Jeremy?

3) Sheila can't have killed herself. It is impossible for her to have shot herself with the suppressor and put it away and it is impossible for her to have moved her body flat after she died.  She was seated when shot then moved shortly thereafter.  There is no proof the moderator was on the rifle when Sheila was shot.  Experiments by a gun expert concludes that the moderator in his opinion was not of the rifle.

Jeremy's apologists deny there was a struggle and made up countless other tales to try to explain away the lack of evidence but none of it holds any water and no evidence at all has been put forth to dent any of the points above.   

Saying one believes the evidence was planted is not proof and frankly is ridiculous in light of the fact there has never been a documented case of back spatter being planted in a suppressor or rifle and the manner in which someone would do it if they bothered would be to pour it in wiht a vial or use a dropper not spray it.  The defense's own expert found microscopic blood drops the simplistic claims a chip of blood was placed inside or got in by accident doesn't work because the defense's own findigns destroyed any chance of claiming accidental contamination. 

There is no hope of ever establishing Jeremy is innocent because he isn't, the evidence used against him was solid.

The best anyone can do is make the unsupported allegation that evidence was planted.  I hear the same thing over and over how others have the right to their opinion.  Yes people have the right to believe any unsuported opinion they desire but opinions that are unsupported are not rational and ost certianly can't be used to establish the opinion is true.  It amounts to people taking a leap of faith because of bias and nothing more.

As for Sheila's prints this is the only thing I have seen put up as evidence to suggest Sheila's print was found on other guns but this falls far short of saying anything about Sheila:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3320.msg130420.html#msg130420

Unless actual documents can be posted to establish it then the claim is another unsupported claim. 

This thread is about the shooting party though.  I am still waiting to see evidence regarding Colin in relation to such.  First DB was relied on but I posted his actual testimony and it was a bust for the defense. He didn't claim he saw her shoot or took her shooting.  He said no at first then under pressure said maybe it happened but he didn't think so and couldn't recall it ever happening.  People keep claiming Colin can establish the claim true but I have yet to see it. 

His statements to police didn't mention a thing about such.  I wonder why his supplemental statement is not in the library here. That is the one where he mentions things like Sheila had been going to bed early lately and didn't have a relationship with her brother and didn't even like it that he was the one Colin arranged to drive her home.  It's also where he talked about June and Sheila bonding over religion.  I didn't really say much of use.  I read it almost 2 months ago somewhere so it had to be available online but for some reason doesn't seem to be on this site.  Is there more than one section for transcripts here?

[Patti]

There is no proof Sheila knew how to load a rifle. Scipio said it is not easy to do this.

Besides no one can even explain what Sheila was doing when Neville made his mysterious phone call to Jeremy.

Hi Adam

The jury loaded ammunition into a magazine successfully. Had they used a magazine before? The staff at the lab loaded the magazine. Its not rocket science. Evidence suggests that a child could use that rifle. To suggest Sheila an adult at 27 couldn't is just not cricket. One does not need a masters degree. 

Plus we don't know how many bullets were put into the magazine at any one point. It could fire with 1 bullet....

[Patti]

Patti/Scipio, good morning Bet you never thought you'd end up together in the same bed!!! I read what you both said with some amusement. You are both talking about the same illness and yet you have both found professionals with polarized views of it. It would appear to be a microcosm of what the entire case is about, wouldn't it.

I probably won't come as much surprise, but from my own knowledge of schizophrenia  -gained during training and meeting with mothers of schizophrenics AND assisting with an academic paper on the links between schizophrenia and adopted children- I'm inclined to agree with what Patti says.

Scipio, I'm sure you couldn't possibly have, but you don't seem to have taken on board that whilst medication is stable, the human condition ISN'T, which is why it can be incredibly difficult to keep tabs on some who have this condition and SO important that contact with the patient is maintained. The patient's emotional/psychological state is KEY. In the same way that the cover given by the contraceptive pill can be diminished by certain other medication/illness, the effects of anti psychotics can be altered by the patient's life circumstances. Monitoring isn't done for fun, it's an integral part of ensuring that the patient stays balanced and safe. In the 18 weeks from leaving hospital to her death, Sheila WAS failed. The psych. nurses who failed to visit her would undoubtedly have picked up that something was wrong -no one off, this. It's STILL happening- so this poor woman who already had severe mental problems -INFORMATION ALERT, Scipio. Schizophrenia comes like pregnancy, you are or you aren't. There are no varying degrees- was left floundering with HUGE emotional problems that would have had the sanest of us in a tailspin. Whilst I appreciate that this MAY not make her guilty, I find very sad the way you appear to be dismissive of her situation in order to show her as being innocent.

Good post April 

[Adam]

Hi Adam

The jury loaded ammunition into a magazine successfully. Had they used a magazine before? The staff at the lab loaded the magazine. Its not rocket science. Evidence suggests that a child could use that rifle. To suggest Sheila an adult at 27 couldn't is just not cricket. One does not need a masters degree. 

Plus we don't know how many bullets were put into the magazine at any one point. It could fire with 1 bullet....

That is a good point. It gets progressivly harder to load with each bullet.