Author Topic: What if?  (Read 9174 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: What if?
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2014, 02:17:PM »
I am reminded of the many occasions that I have quizzed Jeremy about how many rounds were in the gun magazine when he left it on the settle the evening before the shootings, in which he told me that it might not have been a full magazine. He had been questioned about this by DCI Jones on 9th August 1985, because police were anxious to solve the mystery of where five additional bullets used at the time of the shootings had come from?

Jeremy told police that there were already bullets in the gun before he went and got a new box containing 50 rounds of Eley .22 subsonic hollow point rounds, which he proceeded to load into the gun...

He told the police, and he has told me on many occasions, that he thought the ammunitiin magazine was full, or nearly full, when he went out to shoot rabbits he had seen at the back of the barn. It has always interested me to try and find out exactly how many rounds were in the gun, 10, 9, or 8?

That is false.  Jeremy said he took an empty magazine and loaded it.  If it had alreadd been loaded he would have ran out immediately because he was supposedly anxious they would get away.

None of his statements say there was already ammunition in the magazine.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What if?
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2014, 06:03:PM »
The police were anxious to find out where five of the 25 bullets fired in the shootings had originated from, since Jeremy had told police that on the evening of 6th August how he had got a brand new box of 50 bullets, and how he had proceeded to load them into the guns ammunition magazine. DCI Jones quizzed Jeremy about how many rounds he put into the magazine on that first occasion, and he told him that he loaded the ammunition magazine until it was almost full, or full, and that he did not know how many bullets had already been loaded into the rifle before he took possession of it. Jeremy did not know at that stage if there was also a round in the breech of the gun, as well as additional rounds in the magazine before he put any new rounds into the guns magazine, and go out looking to shoot rabbits at the rear of the barn...

In any event, when police counted the loose bullets tipped out on the kitchen worktop, they found a total of 29 rounds, and another solitary one, nearby, making a total of 30. A new box of ammo' contained 50 rounds, so using the powers of deduction, DCI Jones was able to deduce that 20 rounds were missing from the box...

A total of 25 shots had been fired, 20 bullets missing from the box, from where did 5 additional rounds come from?

Jeremy told DCI Jones that these additional 5 rounds must have already been in the gun before he got a new box of 50 and loaded new rounds into the gun, leaving the farmhouse to go looking for rabbits at the rear of the barn...

Police were satisfied with this explanation...

« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 06:10:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What if?
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2014, 06:14:PM »
Using the information given to police by Jeremy regarding the possible source of the additional 5 rounds in the batch of crime scene ammunition,  it enabled me to make further valuable calculations, which provides something of an insight into the activity of the shooter...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What if?
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2014, 06:22:PM »
When you get two mentally ill and disturbed family members at loggerheads with one another, with access to a variety of guns and freely available ammunition, it was a recipe for disaster. In the circumstances of this case, June Bamber was at the heart of what transpired...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What if?
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2014, 06:32:PM »
When you get two mentally ill and disturbed family members at loggerheads with one another, with access to a variety of guns and freely available ammunition, it was a recipe for disaster. In the circumstances of this case, June Bamber was at the heart of what transpired...

According to Colin Caffell, June was the target of his wrath, as indicated by the contents of his letter addressed to Ralph Bamber. No doubt after the arrival of Sheila and the twins at the farmhouse, tension mounted on an hourly to daily basis, with June feeling more and more restricted in her dealings with her grand children. She was not permitted to be left alone with the boys, after Colins criticism of her schooling the children into her religeous habits and beliefs...
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 06:34:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline nugnug

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Re: What if?
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2014, 06:34:PM »
hang on its my understanding that he did not send that letter.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What if?
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2014, 06:41:PM »
Discussions at the supper table, between June, Ralph and Sheila, about the possibility of getting Sheila some help with looking after her children, appear to have been one sided, resulting in further mounting tension between the three adult victims...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What if?
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2014, 06:49:PM »
hang on its my understanding that he did not send that letter.

Hi nugnug,

When Colin arrived at the farm with Sheila and the children he made a point of sounding out Ralph Bamber regarding the contents of his letter. Whether or not the original letter was handed over at that time is open to speculation, but the contents of the letter were clearly mentioned by Caffell to Ralph Bamber. Furthermore, police were given a copy of the said letter by Colin Caffell as part of thier original investigation...
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 06:52:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What if?
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2014, 07:02:PM »
Considering that June is supposed to have been shot in bed no less than five times, it truly is amazing that there is no substantial blood trail from the bed to the area of multiple bloodstaining of the bedroom carpet. If the distribution of blood around and upon the bedroom carpet is evidence that June bled in all of these places around the bedroom, she must have died a very slow and painful death, to do so much walking around with five bullets already pumped into her body - I don't believe this part of the prosecutions case, it is too far fetched...
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 07:05:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What if?
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2014, 07:09:PM »
June fell onto the bed whilst being shot, she did not get shot in bed then get out of bed and walk around the bedroom, here, there and everywhere - her blood is all over the place because she was trying to dodge the aim of the loaded rifle, then she fell onto the bed...
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 07:11:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline lookout

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Re: What if?
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2014, 07:15:PM »
 I did notice that the timing of the murders coincided with Colins' imminent holiday taking the twins with him and Heather ( incidentally,,it wasn't Heather that Colin finally married,it was a Sally------ ) Chances are that Sheila really didn't want that to happen,,,her " once " husband,,taking this woman,and Sheilas' children away while she was at the mercy of her mother at WHF.
In all honesty,,I think it would have bugged me too,,but I wouldn't have resorted to doing anything as drastic. Sheila made sure that the twins weren't going to go anywhere. 

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: What if?
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2014, 07:25:PM »
The police were anxious to find out where five of the 25 bullets fired in the shootings had originated from, since Jeremy had told police that on the evening of 6th August how he had got a brand new box of 50 bullets, and how he had proceeded to load them into the guns ammunition magazine. DCI Jones quizzed Jeremy about how many rounds he put into the magazine on that first occasion, and he told him that he loaded the ammunition magazine until it was almost full, or full, and that he did not kniw how many bullets had already been loaded into the rifle before he took possession of it. Jeremy did not know at that stage if there was also a round in the breech of the gun, as well as additional rounds in the magazine before he put any new rounds into the guns magazine, and go out lookibg to shoot rabbits at the rear of the barn...

In any event, when police counted the loose bullets tipped out on the kitchen worktop, they found a total of 29 rounds, and another solitary one, nearby, making a total of 30. A new box of ammo' contained 50 rounds, so using the powers of deduction, DCI Jones was able to deduce that 20 rounds were missing from the box...

A total of 25 shots had been fired, 20 bullets missing from the box, from where did 5 additional rounds come from?

Jeremy told DCI Jones that these additional 5 rounds must have already been in the gun before he got a new box of 50 and loaded new rounds into the gun, leaving the farmhouse to go looking for rabbits at the rear of the barn...

Police were satisfied with this explanation...

The 30th bullet was still in the wet (the plastic tray that bullets sit in inside a cardboard box is a wet)  So when he tipped the tray out but 1 didn't fall out.  29 were beside the tray and 1 still in the tray so that is where the 30 number comes from. 

His story to police on the day of the murders and the following day was that he took an empty magazine and loaded it and wasn't even sure if he loaded it all the way because he was in a rush to get to the rabbits before they could run away.  If the magazine had been loaded already he would have had no need to take the tray with him.  He said sought out bullets because it was empty so he grabbed a tray and he wanted to load it fast so spilled it out to be able to grab them faster and he loaded 8-10 rounds.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1091.msg33765.html#msg33765

In September under questioning he said he loaded 5-10 rounds inside the magazine again he wasn't sure if he loaded it to max capacity because he was in a rush.   

At certain times he tried to make it appear that he wasn't sure how many bullets the magazine held saying that it might have held only 8 rounds he wasn't positive to try to make it appear he didn't take part or surely he would know the weapon's maxiumum capacity.  Other times he admitte dhe knew it held 10 so this suggests deception on his part.

At trial the prosecution asserted the claim he loaded the gun in advance was likely made up and that the story he had gotten the gun to shoot rabbits is not credible for a variety of reasons including not being known by anyone to shoot rabbits or animals in general. But their major claim he staged the scene and was lying was the fact that 30 bullets remained and depending upon how many had been in the box only 23-25 bullets should have remained if his claims were true.

The defense did argue that 5 rounds were in the gun already but in his statements he made it clear it had been empty and that he was in a rush to load it before the rabbits could run away. If it had bullets in it he would have ran out immediately not to have dropped the clip to load it to capacity.  He wasn't even sure whether he loaded it to capacity he said it had between 5-10 rounds after he loaded it and and ran out but they already had left. 

For ther eot have been 5 rounds alreayd and him to drop the magazine to load 3-5 more doesn't comport with the claim he made of it being empty or the claim of his urgency.  He would not have sought out bullets if it had some inside he would have jsut ran outside.  Epseically if he didn't mind it having only 5 inside.  His statement was it had betwene 5 and 10 when he ran out he wa sin a rush so might not have loaded it to capacity. 

The defense argued his memory must have been faulty and it must had already had 5 rounds in the magazine.  This doesn't seem to fit at all though with what he was suggesting.

It also doesn't fit how people say the gun was usually stored by Nevill- empty.  The las known user said it had been left empty. 

It doesn't seem reasonable for him to be in a tremendous rush yet fetch bullets to top off the magazine
and not only forget it had bullets and he simply topped off the magazine but to claim he wasn't sure if the gun had more than 5 rounds or not when he ran to shoot the rabbits. 

Nor does it make sense though to be in a rush and yet go put the gun near the door, go load the magazine in the kitchen in front of Sheila.  The story sounds extremely contrived. 

The argment it had 5 rounds in it and that he forgot it wasn't empty doesn't make sense, he would have just used the gun with 5 rounds if he was in the rush he claimed.  But he wans't known to shoot rabbits and seeing them outside that late is doubtful anyway.  Sometimes he claimed he saw other times heard which is even worse.  Not wanting to use the suppressor and scope makes little sense either and finding the gun without them attached even less sense.

His claim Nevill took the scope and suppressor off frequently was contradicted by others and indeed makes little sense.

He also originally stated he hadn't used the gun the week prior to taking it out to shoot rabbits.  The last known user said he left it with the scope and suppressor attached and empty.

This prompted Jeremy to change his story and he claimed he repeatedly used it the week prior to the murders and each time he retrived the weapon it was in a different state, sometimes the accessories were attached other times they were not and that Nevill would have been the one taking them on and off.   This is not credible, there would be no reason to remove the accessories especially the scope because then the rifle would need to be zeroed before it could be used. The testimony that Nevill did not remove the acessories by others was credible his wasn't.

Expecially in light of the fact he changed his testimony and claimed he used it simply to try to contradict statements by Anthony, the last known user, about the state of the rifle in the closet though he told the truth when he didn't know it would be an issue and only made up this lie when it was necessary.

The prosecution's position is much stronger than the defense in my opinion and the opinion of many including the jury most likely. Many do not find Jeremy's claims credible and see this as evidence he staged the bullets and made up the story to suggest:

1) Sheila would know how to load it because she saw him

2) Though Sheila would not go seek out the gun and bullets they were sitting out so she had no need to seek them out, they were sitting out in the open for her to grab out of anger

3) to establish the gun didn't have the suppressor and scope attached while sitting out because they would likely have been attached and he figured his claim would result in no one wondering why Sheila would remove the accessories.   
 
The only reason to remove the scope would be for close quarter shooing like the murders and removing it would be evidence of planning and intent hence this cover story.

The suppressor was removed and put away and the cover story invented to conceal its use because It was too long for Sheila to kill herself with.

So the cover story and planting of the rounds served valuable purposes that demonstrate a framing attempt.

 

   
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What if?
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2014, 07:29:PM »
As awful as it was for the manner with which the boy victims were both executed, it does not exclude for the possibility that June Bamber was the shooter that killed them both. June was the target of Colin Caffells criticism, it must have been spelt out to June after the confrontation between Colin and Ralph that Junes practice of controlling the children had to stop, or she would never see them ever again. Bear in mind that June did not attend her regular Tuesday evening bible class, perhaps something of an indication that she was prepared to change her ways whilst the children were staying at whf...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Jane

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Re: What if?
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2014, 07:33:PM »
As awful as it was for the manner with which the boy victims were both executed, it does not exclude for the possibility that June Bamber was the shooter that killed them both. June was the target of Colin Caffells criticism, it must have been spelt out to June after the confrontation between Colin and Ralph that Junes practice of controlling the children had to stop, or she would never see them ever again. Bear in mind that June did not attend her regular Tuesday evening bible class, perhaps something of an indication that she was prepared to change her ways whilst the children were staying at whf...


Is a confrontation between Colin and Nevill documented. I understood from Colin's book that having written the letter he decided not to send it which makes it odd that he would show it to Nevill.

Offline lookout

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Re: What if?
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2014, 07:48:PM »
 April,,maybe Colin thought that if the letter was sent,,it might get opened by June,,though the way things happened,,I rather feel it was eventually passed around,or snatched from Nevilles' grasp and read out loudly by Sheila,,so it may as well have been posted for the" privacy" it attracted !