What if?

[lookout]

 We've both forgotten one thing. Well I had,,and that was Nevilles' call to the police-------------" my daughter has the gun ". Which blows out of the water,,Jeremys' supposed way of getting out of a tight squeeze.
So at that time,,we then knew that Sheila was brandishing the gun.

I really can't see her parents standing like statues,waiting to be shot though,,,as both would have put up a fight,,as is evident.

[mike tesko]

It is possible that when Ralph made the call to Jeremy, (1) that nobody had been shot at all by that stage, and that Ralph may not have said "Sheila's got the gun", but rather he said "she has got the gun", it being a reference to June having the gun. Jeremy explained in one of his police interviews regarding this mix up to which the officer receiving Jeremys call to police took it upon himself later to interpret what Ralph had said, from "she has", or "he has", into "Sheila's"...

This change of emphasis could have occurred once Ralph himself called police to report that "my daughter has got hold of one of my guns"...

You see, Ralphs call to Jeremy, and Ralphs call to police took place within a short time of one another, so that once the line had gone dead in the Ralph/Jeremy call, and Jeremy tried to re-establish contact with the farm he was met with a constant engaged tone.

it is possible that within that short period of time, that both June and Sheila had got hold of either the same gun, or different ones...

[mike tesko]

In my view, the scenario of June and Sheila with a gun, or the gun at any stage of the proceedings, fits in well with the idea that there had been tension within the family unit from the evening before.  In Ralphs call to Jeremy, he told Jeremy (possibly) that lets say, "she has got the gun", but by the time Ralph speaks to police he is now saying, " my daughter has got hold of one of my guns", which suggests for the possibility that within the space of a couple of minutes both June and Sheila may have had possession of a gun, be it the same gun or a different one...

Police took an interest in at least two other guns from the scene, in addition to the .22 anshuzt rifle, and it comes as no surprise to discover that Sheila's fingerprints were found upon both of these other two weapons, which were a 12 bore shotgun which police retrieved from the gun cupboard in the downstairs office, and a BSA .22 air rifle found upon the spiral staircase which led from the main kitchen on the ground floor to the landing upstairs...

Sheila's fingerprints found upon three different guns within different parts of the farmhouse, namely (a) her prints on the .22 anshuzt rifle found in the main bedroom, (b) her fingerprints found on the BSA .22 rifle which police recovered from the spiral stair which provides access between main kitchen and upstairs landing, and finally, (c) her fingerprints discovered on a 12 bore shotgun recovered from inside the cupboard in the downstairs office...

Seems pretty convincing to me, that at one time or another, Sheila handled one or other of at least three different guns found at the scene after the shootings...

Seems somewhat compelling evidence to suggest that Sheila had handled all of these different type of weapon at some point before she died...

[mike tesko]

Considering for the fact that so many deaths occurred at the farmhouse, I can picture in my minds eye the images of June having the gun, and Sheila also having possession of one of Ralphs guns. I have no problem at all with this scenario, and I am prepared to accept that by that stage when Raloh called Jeremy, and then the police, that matters had escalated to a dangerius level which was why Ralph called the police after he spoke briefly to Jeremy...

I am prepared to accept that from a situation of the wife having possession of the gun and going crazy, into a scenario where his daughter has also got possession of one of his guns, and she was also going berserk, was too much for anyone person (like Ralph) to have to deal with all by themselves...

The tragedy was not helped because what was unfolding inside whf at about 3.26am that morning was two mentally disturbed women armed with guns going crazy and berserk, and by the time Jeremy spoke to police, police already had information, that Ralphs daughter had got hold of one of his guns, so it comes as no suprise to me, to learn that PC West misinterpreted what Jeremy said his father had told him, "she has got the gun", into "Sheila has got the gun"...

[mike tesko]

POLICE destroyed the quilt from the bed, they also destroyed the piece of bedroom carpet upon which Sheila's body was later photographed, so there is no evidence that June was shot in bed whilst sleeping...

If anyone knows of any evidence to prove otherwise, then please feel free to direct me to it...

[mike tesko]

According to one account, police found Sheila's and June Bambers bodies on the bed, with one of the guns between both...

[mike tesko]

June shot the children, and this could have occurred prior to Ralphs calls to Jeremy and the police...

However, not necessarily so, she could have shot them after Ralph made those calls...

[mike tesko]

June shot the children, and this ciuld have occurred prior to Ralphs calls to Jeremy and the police...

However, not necessarily so, she could have shot them after Ralph made those calls...

I favour the scenario of the shootings after Ralphs calls to Jeremy and police, otherwise I feel sure that Ralph would have given some mention of this in both, or one or other of the calls he made from the scene. I think we can safely say that at the time Ralph was making calls to Jeremy and police that no-one had been shot by that stage, although things had started to escalate...

[mike tesko]

I am reminded of the many occasions that I have quizzed Jeremy about how many rounds were in the gun magazine when he left it on the settle the evening before the shootings, in which he told me that it might not have been a full magazine. He had been questioned about this by DCI Jones on 9th August 1985, because police were anxious to solve the mystery of where five additional bullets used at the time of the shootings had come from?

Jeremy told police that there were already bullets in the gun before he went and got a new box containing 50 rounds of Eley .22 subsonic hollow point rounds, which he proceeded to load into the gun...

He told the police, and he has told me on many occasions, that he thought the ammunitiin magazine was full, or nearly full, when he went out to shoot rabbits he had seen at the back of the barn. It has always interested me to try and find out exactly how many rounds were in the gun, 10, 9, or 8?

[mike tesko]

I am reminded of the many occasions that I have quizzed Jeremy about how many rounds were in the gun magazine when he left it on the settle the evening before the shootings, in which he told me that it might not have been a full magazine. He had been questioned about this by DCI Jones on 9th August 1985, because police were anxious to solve the mystery of where five additional bullets used at the time of the shootings had come from?

Jeremy told police that there were already bullets in the gun before he went and got a new box containing 50 rounds of Eley .22 subsonic hollow point rounds, which he proceeded to load into the gun...

He told the police, and he has told me on many occasions, that he thought the ammunitiin magazine was full, or nearly full, when he went out to shoot rabbits he had seen at the back of the barn. It has always interested me to try and find out exactly how many rounds were in the gun, 10, 9, or 8?

By this I mean after Jeremy had loaded additional rounds into the ammunition magazine on evening 6th August 1985?

[mike tesko]

It is somewhat misleading to believe that June went back to bed after she had shot and killed the grand children, there is absolutely no evidence to support such a suggestion, nobody connected with the police raid  report June being found on the bed (in thier revised accounts of the raid) or that they found evidence that June had been shot whilst laying a sleep in bed beneath the bed quilt...

However, there is nothing to prevent the suggestion that when Sheila reacted by shooting June for having shot and killed her children and Ralph Bamber, that June may have fallen onto the bed, and been shot several times, on that occasion...

June shot the twins, fought and killed her husband Ralph (phase 1), Sheila shot June (phase 2), and police were responsible for shooting Sheila (phase 3)...

[mike tesko]

According to Colin Caffell there was an issue involving Junes influence over the boys when they attended whf, which spilled over into the evening of 6th, and morning of 7th August 1985....

The clues as to what happened are all there, and point to it not being Sheila as the lone killer, no involvement by Jeremy, and to June being an unwitting accomplice of Sheila's in the shootings...

It is looking more and more like June and Sheila shot members of the family at different stages of the tragedy - June Bambersrole in the shootings certainly helps to clear up inconsistencies of there being no lead deposit found in hand swabs taken frim Sheila, and the lack of blood transference from victims on her nightdress, whereas, Junes habds were never swabbed, and her nightdress soaked in all that blood speaks volumes for her involvement whilst struggling with Ralph in the kitchen...

[lebaleb]

I have to agree with Scipio on this. It seems to me an unlikely scenario. June may have exacerbated the situation by winding up Sheila, but I doubt her role went further than that. IMO.
 I don't believe in any struggle in the kitchen. A friend of mine's house was recently broken into. She is not at all fastidious when it comes to housework. The first thing the police said was ''Oh no! They trashed the place''.

[mike tesko]

Unfortunately, Junes nightdress is covered all over with blood, consistent with her being the shooter, and her hands frozen in rigor mortis giving an impression she had been holding a gun, or a rifle when she died. Her hands were not checked for lead deposit, so she could have been the person who loaded the gun with additional ammunition - June has not been eliminated as the shooter yet, she could in the grand scheme of things have loaded the gun with more bullets, she could have been the shooter who fought with and killed her husband...

June has to be considered as a possible accomplice of Sheila's, in that June may have killed the twins and Ralph, and Sheila shot and killed June Bamber. Police then shot Sheila, once downstairs, and on a second occasion upstairs in the bedroom...

[mike tesko]

There is a real prospect that the original hand swabs (DRH/33) which were sent to the lab' on 9th August 1985, in the same package as a firearm, lab' item 17, were in fact hand swabs taken from June Bamber, not Sheila Caffell. The firearm in question is believed to have been the BSA .22 air rifle police have since said was found on the spiral staircase...