Author Topic: You can't have it both ways, the phone calls timed at 3.36 or 3.26am?  (Read 12999 times)

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Offline mike tesko

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There is no recorded duration of the call received by PC West, and similarly, there is no duration for the call received by Malcolm Bonnett...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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The contents of the 3.26am log are very misleading because of the mention of a message having been passed to the police by the son. The message passed by the son is recorded in the 3.36am log, so why would PC West change the wording and meaning of Jeremys call to himself, when West was speaking to Bonnet? Surely, he would have repeated word for word what Jeremy had said or spoken about, not change the context of the message to make out it was Ralph Bamber who had passed the message 10 minutes sooner...
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 08:19:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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PC West liased with Malcolm Bonnet because the two calls appeared to relate to the same incident, not because Jeremy requested PC West to do so...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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There is no recorded duration of the call received by PC West, and similarly, there is no duration for the call received by Malcolm Bonnett...

The duration doesn't mean anything.

If Bonnet claimed he got a call from Nevill that would be one thing then there would have been call to go to the phone company to look for evidence of a call.  But he insists he didn't receive any such call.  He and PC West ar ein accord that they spoke together and he dispatched the police after PC West contacted him.  PC West had to contact a dispatcher and both men agree Bonnet is the one he contacted. 

There is not enough time between when police arrived and when you say Nevill made the call that Nevill would have beein shot in the bedroom then fougth in the kitchen and finally shot in the kitchen before police arrived.  They would have heard the shots in the kitchen. 

This issue simply has no legs at all as far as trying to use it as a basis to get a court to quash the conviction.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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I cannot see how any jury would automatically buy into the suggestion that both of these timed logs relate to the same solitary phone call message passed to police by Jeremy Bamber. If both phone logs had been disclosed during the trial, I feel confident that a jury would reject such a claim, by comparing the contents of each of these two logs, and be satisfied that Ralph Bamber must have called the police himself, before Jeremy had done so himself. Particularly so, because during Jeremys call to police timed at 3.36am, Jeremy has spoken of a lengthy delay whilst he was put on hold, to which he complained about to the officer, and there is no mention of any corresponding delay in the 3.26am log message...

There is clearly too much doubt regarding the existence of these two different phone message log contents for any jury to come to the conclusion that both are a record of the same call made to police by the same person, that person being non other than Jeremy Bamber, himself...

The trial judge always takes it upon himself to warn the jury about being absolutely sure about facts and the law when it comes to retiring to reach a verdict, and had both logs been disclosed together I feel sure that there would have been a huge cloud of doubt linked to the origin of both of these calls, sufficient doubt I would say to persuade any jury that one of the calls had indeed been made by Ralph Bamber to the police...

There is no way that Ralph would phone Jeremy and say to him that "my daughter has got hold of one of my guns", he would have said something like, "Sheila has got the gun", or "She has got the gun", or whatever, and indeed in Jeremys own words when he himself spoke to police, that is precisely what Jeremy did tell police, he did not tell the police that "my daughter has got hold of one of my guns", he would not say such a thing simply because Sheila was not, is not Jeremys daughter...
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 08:38:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Jan

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If NB called at 3.26 that left  24 minutes before the police  arrived -so why could he have not been shot before they got there ?

He could have been beaten whilst they were outside for all we know - they would not have heard that would they?




Offline Jan

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One thing that always struck me was that when Jeremy was being interviewed and the police ( falsely) told him they could prove the time of the calls - he seemed to be pleased  because he knew it would prove his innocence.

What a shame they were not telling the truth.


Offline mike tesko

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Tests carried out at Birdwell armoury in 2003 / 2004, established that the sound of a .22 rifle being discharged in one room might not necessarily be heard by anyone inside another room of the same building, let alone by anyone outside the building. The sound of a .22 rifle is nothing like the sound of a shotgun being discharged...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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The contents of the 3.26am log are very misleading because of the mention of a message having been passed to the police by the son. The message passed by the son is recorded in the 3.36am log, so why would PC West change the wording and meaning of Jeremys call to himself, when West was speaking to Bonnet? Surely, he would have repeated word for word what Jeremy had said or spoken about, not change the context of the message to make out it was Ralph Bamber who had passed the message 10 minutes sooner...

He didn't change the meaning.  He relayed Jeremy's claims so that Bonnet could dispatch a police car and Bonnet could relay to such police car what the alleged situation was.  Police are not just sent to an address with no information about why they are going the goal is to give the responders as much infromation as possible.

Bonnet clearly wrote on the form: "Message passed to CD by the son of Mr Bamber after phone went dead".  Ther eis no way to claim that Boonet was claiming on this form to have received a call from nevill and he outright denied the claim, he insists that just like the form states he was called by West via internal police line.

There is nothing to suggest that Nevill made a call himself. the forms do not support such, the testimony of both men don't support such and the phone company turned up nothing to support it.

There thus is no hope of ever convincing a court that Nevill made a call to police.
 
Jeremy definitely spoke to PC West.  That is the account that
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline grahameb

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If NB called at 3.26 that left  24 minutes before the police  arrived -so why could he have not been shot before they got there ?

He could have been beaten whilst they were outside for all we know - they would not have heard that would they?
I believe the crime took place in a far shorter time than many imagine? I also doubt that if they were outside the house when shots were fired that they would necessarily have heard it? The farmhouse had thick old walls and if the shots to Sheila were contact shots this would deaden the sound even more. Such a rifle as we have seen by way of demonstration some time ago sound like a crack instead of a loud bang. The sound would carry more when outside in a field. But not in an enclosed space.

Offline Alias

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If NB called at 3.26 that left  24 minutes before the police  arrived -so why could he have not been shot before they got there ?

He could have been beaten whilst they were outside for all we know - they would not have heard that would they?

When we talk about Sheila sleeping through shots and commotion INSIDE the house, she wouldn´t have heard anything because the walls were so thick.
On the other hand, when we talk abuot the police OUSIDE the house, they WOULD have heard shots.

Bending and twisting.

Offline grahameb

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He didn't change the meaning.  He relayed Jeremy's claims so that Bonnet could dispatch a police car and Bonnet could relay to such police car what the alleged situation was.  Police are not just sent to an address with no information about why they are going the goal is to give the responders as much infromation as possible.

Bonnet clearly wrote on the form: "Message passed to CD by the son of Mr Bamber after phone went dead".  Ther eis no way to claim that Boonet was claiming on this form to have received a call from nevill and he outright denied the claim, he insists that just like the form states he was called by West via internal police line.

There is nothing to suggest that Nevill made a call himself. the forms do not support such, the testimony of both men don't support such and the phone company turned up nothing to support it.

There thus is no hope of ever convincing a court that Nevill made a call to police.
 
Jeremy definitely spoke to PC West.  That is the account that
I had to phone the police yesterday as I witnessed a burglary. Believe me both police and ambulance are usually sent as soon as they receive the emergency call. They are relayed details enroute.

Offline mike tesko

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There is no denying that at some stage PC West spoke to Malcolm Bonnet, no-one has ever tried to deny that this did happen. but such contact as took place was in the ordinary course of PC Wests and Malcolm Bonnets duty, that fact aside, it does not prevent anyone coming to a logical conclusion that the main body of the 3.26am log details were passed to police by Ralph Bamber, and not by Jeremy himself...

You see you have other factors which fall to be considered, and it is no good anyone saying that the phone company did not have any records of Ralphs call to the police, because they did and do. Records also exist to prove that there was a call from the scene to Jeremy's cottage, and that the telephone was being monitored by Special branch and the drugs squad. So, whether you choose to believe this or not that is a matter for you, but when Ralph contacted Jeremy by use of the telephone at the scene, everything that Jeremy has told the police that his father had said, was confirmed as having been said by Ralph to Jeremy. The contents of the 3.26am phone message log, are not an interpretation of what Jeremy told police his father had told him (that is fact), but could be a true record of what was overheard during the aforementioned eavesdrop of the telephone line at the scene by Special Branch / the drugs squad operatives...

If Ralph himself did not make the call to police from the scene, then what was overheard during the aforementioned eavesdrop is what is recorded by those / these means - "Daughter has got hold of one of my guns", is what was relayed by the surveillance unit to the control room at 3.26am...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Another thing never ask police for the time, because going by what appears to have been going on here in this case, no two police officers have access to the same time of day or night...

Which brings me on to the suggestion that the clock in the control room was some 10 minutes fast...

Lets have a look at the offending message log contents timed as commencing at 3.36am, shall we:-
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 09:05:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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Tests carried out at Birdwell armoury in 2003 / 2004, established that the sound of a .22 rifle being discharged in one room might not necessarily be heard by anyone inside another room of the same building, let alone by anyone outside the building. The sound of a .22 rifle is nothing like the sound of a shotgun being discharged...

An unsupressed .22LR still makes a loud enough report to hear from another room or outside a house.  Whether someone will wake up depneds on how sound of a sleeper they are.  Some people are sound sleepers and will sleep through anything even loud thunder.  Others wake up from anything.

We don't know what kind of sleepers the victims were.  We don't know how sound a sleeper Sheila wa on her medication. 

I have fired .22s and the report is loud enough not only to be heard but to damage hearing, you need to wear earplugs.  Unless walls are extremely well insulated the suggestion that someone outside with no sounds going on won't hear is not credible. IF the suppressor is used with the ammunition in question then that is a different matter entirely. The report is sufficiently taken care of so that the hearing will no be harmed, that people in other rooms would not be likely to hear and wake up and probably would not be heard from outside.

If the suppressor were attached the gun then it would be possible for Sheila to have killed the victims and to have shot herself using her toe to kill herself with police there without them realizing it.  But it wasn't attached. The notion they would not hear any shots fried from an unsuppressed weapon in the silence around the house is simply not credible.

 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry