Author Topic: You can't have it both ways, the phone calls timed at 3.36 or 3.26am?  (Read 12974 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

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How did Jeremy manage to make the call to Julie Mugford at 3.30am, or earlier if the line from the scene was linked up inexplicably to the phone at Jeremys cottage? If Jeremy called Mugford before he called the police, why did the police still keep getting an engaged tone?

The prosecution arguments and evidence simply do not make sense, or ring true...

The testimony was that after hanging up it would take 1-2 minutes for the line at Jeremy's to clear and him to be able to use it.  Which means he could not have called Julie until 1-2 minutes after hanging up.  Since he was unaware it took 1-2 minutes to clear he obviously waited longer than that before trying to call her. Otherwise he would not have made impossible claims like immediately phoning WHF back. That was actually some of what was used against him. That his claims didn't match what was known about what would happen with the phones.

For all we know he hung up the phone and took a shower before calling Julie. We have no way to know what he was doing.  Changing clothes and washing would seem to be in order before calling police. So that is why there was believed to have been a gap between the calls to Julie and police.  We have no way to know the complete plan or happenings though.  There was a gap and posited explanation simply.

 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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Just to recap:-

Jeremy calls police, relaying what his father told him, then police checked line at the scene and found it to be engaged. Later on, police asked operator to check the line at the scene, and she reports that the phone is off the hook...

At what stage did the phone at the scene change from being engaged, to being off the hook?

Who was still alive at the scene who was using the phone one minute, then left the handset off the hook, at a time when Jeremy was contacting the police from his phone at his cottage?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 10:57:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Added to this is the timing of the telephone call that Jeremy made to Julie Mugford that morning, 3.30am?
3.15am?

Under what now known circumstances did the timing of this call become altered from originally said to have taken place at 3.30am, into 3.15am, that same morning?

Why move the timing of this call back 15 minutes?
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Added to this is the timing of the telephone call that Jeremy made to Julie Mugford that morning, 3.30am?
3.15am?

Under what now known circumstances did the timing of this call become altered from originally said to have taken place at 3.30am, into 3.15am, that same morning?

Why move the timing of this call back 15 minutes?

More importantly, who put Mugford and Battersby up to this?
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Jeremy wouldn't have to wait anytime at all, for the line to clear, if he received the call from his father at the scene. If he didn't receive the call from his father at the scene, he wouldn't have to wait either, in any event, before making a call to Julie Mugford......
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 11:19:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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The reason why Jeremy got an engaged tone when he tried to re-establish contact with his father at the farmhouse, was because Ralph was in the process of speaking with police about his daughter having possession of one of his guns, and later when the line was found to still be engaged when police checked the line after Jeremy alerted them to what might be unfolding at the scene in his own call to police, was because Ralphs call to police (3.26am) became terminated when PC West spoke to Malcolm Bonnet about the incident reported by father and son in two different calls. Once West started talking to Bonnet the line from the scene to the police changed into a phone off the hook scenario...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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The reason why Jeremy got an engaged tone when he tried to re-establish contact with his father at the farmhouse, was because Ralph was in the process of speaking with police about his daughter having possession of one of his guns, and later when the line was found to still be engaged when police checked the line after Jeremy alerted them to what might be unfolding at the scene in his own call to police, was because Ralphs call to police (3.26am) became terminated when PC West spoke to Malcolm Bonnet about the incident reported by father and son in two different calls. Once West started talking to Bonnet the line from the scene to the police changed into a phone off the hook scenario...

The reason the line from the scene was able to be patched through to the control room by the operator was because the line from the scene had been making a call to police at the time the phone at the scene was being reported as engaged. At some point police disassociated themselves from this connection but were later able to reopen the connection and eavesdrop the crime scene, prior to entry made by police, and afterwards...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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Just to recap:-

Jeremy calls police, relaying what his father told him, then police checked line at the scene and found it to be engaged. Later on, police asked operator to check the line at the scene, and she reports that the phone is off the hook...

At what stage did the phone at the scene change from being engaged, to being off the hook?

Who was still alive at the scene who was using the phone one minute, then left the handset off the hook, at a time when Jeremy was contacting the police from his phone at his cottage?



Jeremy claims someone hung up the phone at WHF and he heard simply an empty dialtone then the person immediately took it off the hook so that no one could call.  He claimed he immediately dialed back but the phone line came up busy because it was sitting off the hook.

The telephone company said the phone at WHF was never hung up but rather that the phone call ended by Jeremy hanging up.  This contradicts Jeremy's account.  Moreover, if you hang up then immediately take the phone off the hook it will not disconnect a call. Both parties have to hang up the same time before one picks the phone up again or it takes 1-2 minutes of sitting on the cradle to clear.

Someone would have to have hung up, given Jeremy enough time to hang up and then to have taken the phone off the hook again.  But the telephone company says this did not happen.  The telephone company agent testified that the call was dialed from WHF, someone picked up at Goldhanger and the phone remained off the hook at WHF from that point forward.  The person at Goldhanger hung up and cleared the line by the phone being hung up for 1-2 minutes.

The theory presented by the prosecution which the jury accepted was:

1) Nevill was injured upstairs in the inital attack and was unable to speak becaus eof his injuries so coudl not have made any phonecall
2) Jeremy took the phone, dialed his house and left it off the hook so it would keep ringing at his house
3) because he left the phone off the hook it kept ringing at his house the entire time he drove home
4) when he got home he answered knowing no one was on the other end but did it figuring this would demonstrate a call had been made
5) he hung up
6) after waiting a while to change his clothes or wash up he called Julie
7) after some more time he called the police

If he drove back to WHF and put the phone back on the hook he would have been far better off because then it would look more like someone could have made a call and then hung up from WHF.

Apart from the testimony from the telephone company being harmful because his claims were not possible, why would Sheila allow Nevill to dial (on a rotary phone so it would take longer to dial), allow Nevill to wait for Jeremy to answer (it would take Jeremy a few minutes to wake up and make it downstairs to the phone if he woke up at all) and then allow him to speak to Jeremy before suddenly taking the phone and hanging it up?  Worse yet, why would she wait a sufficent amount of time for Jeremy to hang up then take the phone off the hook so no one could call back? 

She suppoesly was marching him upstairs at gunpoint so why would she care if the phone kept ringing downstairs where no one could reach it?   Especially since he already got the message out why would she need to leave the phone off the hook?

The phone calls were the worst part of his plan.  They totally screwed up everything.  He should have either gone back and hung it up, which he could have done before police arrived had he not wanted to arrive after them, or better yet should not have called police at all, should have made someone else find the bodies in the morning and acted surprised when he learned of it.  Admitting he had knowledge of the incident means that when they proved Sheila didn't do it that he had to have been the one.  But for his knowledge police would not be able to say who framed Sheila.  They could say he had the most to gain but would not have any evidence he did it.  By instigating himself in the finding of the bodies he gave evidence that would not have otherwise existed. 

Instigating himself in the middle with his tale about leaving the gun out and shooting rabbits likewise was a poor idea. Not only because others contradict his claims and the claims don't make too much sense but the box of ammo was a really strong piece of evidence that he staged the scene. He said the box of ammo didn't move and that it had been full and thus was the source of ammunition used in the murders.  The box had 30 rounds left though meaning only 20 missing.  It can't have been the sole source of ammunition the killer either didn't use this box at all or used it as well as some from the gun closet.  Why would Sheila go get 5 rounds from the gun closet and use 20 from the box?  If she used 20 from the box she would have used 5 more from it not gone to the closet.       

By trying so hard to say Sheila did it and ssaying he gave her knowledge of how to shoot and load the gun etc he was straining to frame her thus suggesting he framed her.  SIlence would have bee far better because then he would not look like he did anything and they would only have bare suspicion because of a potential motive.

The last bit of evidence that he was the one behind the frame job was Julie, telling her anything was infinitely stupid.  But for the phone call and the unconvincing rabbit shooting story that's the only evidence that there would have existed to suggest he was the one who framed Sheila.

So:

Leaving the phone at WHF off the hook and not going back in later to hang it up alerted authorities to how he faked a call from WHF, this fake call did not help him at all like he had hoped.

The supposed call and the mad eup story about how he was going to shoot rabbits an dleft out the gun and bullets for Sheila to find and how she watched him load it so she kne whow to do so made everyone very suspicious.   

If he simply Killed them and framing her by leaving the gun on her and then made someone else find the bodies he would have been way better off.  Calling police with the claims of receiving a call from Nevill ended up biting him in the butt bigtime.  Trying so hard to make sure they put the blame on her by saying he left the gun and bullets out and all the rest made people suspicious because his claims did not ring accurate.  If he let them draw their own conclusions and didn't go out of his way to finger her and pretended to have no knowledge at all he would have been much better off. 

There is no way to establish Nevill made a phone call to police. The phone company said there was no record of any other calls and in fact the phone had been left off the hook since the call to Goldhanger so no subsequent calls could have been made.  The police likewise deny receiving any such call and the written record that is trying to be used to suggest otherwise clearly states the son was relaying the message not Nevill directly.

There is no way an appeal court is going to believe it is possible Nevill made the call given the police testimony, records themselves and the phone company's testimony.  It's a lost cause.  Plus the court already rejected it only new evidence like a cop changing his testimony or some other cop claiming to have spoken with Nevill would be able to cause reconsideration of the issue.  Short of new evidence there is no legal basis to reconsider the issue even.

 

 

 
     
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Adam

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I thought the prosecution case was that Jeremy rode on a bike to WHF.

One option would have been to phone his cottage from WHF then hang up after a few seconds. Then let other people find the bodies, Jeremy acting shocked when finding out the news. He could then confirm how unstable Sheila was.

Jeremy could claim Neville must have rang him due to problems with Sheila. But he was asleep so did not hear the phone.

The problem with this is people would ask why Neville did not leave a  message on Jeremys answering machine.

'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline mike tesko

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Jeremy has never claimed that anyone hung up the phone at whf, he said the line went dead...

The only way this could happen in the circumstances described by Jeremy is that someone at the scene depressed the cradle which in turn lowered the two plungers of the round finger dial phone model, which produces no dialling tone at all until the cradle is released and the two corresponding plungers come back up. At this stage you get a dialling tone - but Jeremy has never claimed he got a dialling tone despite trying to phone back to whf, all he kept getting was a constant engaged tone...

What this tells us is that there was still someone alive at the scene so as to depress the cradle of the round finger dial phone in the kitchen, not only that but whoever had their fingers on the cradle of the phone waited awhile before allowing the cradle up again, which was what produced a dialling tone, and why Jeremy was possibly getting an engaged tone at that time, or as the case may be, when Ralph was making his call to police at 3.26am...
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 07:26:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Phone going dead, then Jeremy and police getting an engaged tone, and later when the operator reported that the phone was off the hook, proves there was someone alive at the scene at a time when Jeremy was elsewhere...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline lookout

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Nothing unusual in getting " hung-up " during a telephone call. There is NO mystery to that whatsoever.

Offline grahameb

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I thought the prosecution case was that Jeremy rode on a bike to WHF.

One option would have been to phone his cottage from WHF then hang up after a few seconds. Then let other people find the bodies, Jeremy acting shocked when finding out the news. He could then confirm how unstable Sheila was.

Jeremy could claim Neville must have rang him due to problems with Sheila. But he was asleep so did not hear the phone.

The problem with this is people would ask why Neville did not leave a  message on Jeremys answering machine.
Wow! Makes you think doesn't it? Good job the bike wasn't a space hopper with mud on it. ;D

Offline mike tesko

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I think one of the main features of the call which Jeremy continues to maintain that he received from his father, is the part where the line suddenly went dead...


What happened after this is also very important - Had Ralph Bamber depressed the cradle, holding it deliberately in the down position so as not to alert his killer that he had been using the phone? Was someone approaching the kitchen by that stage? Was there sufficient time for him to make his 3.26am call to police? If he did that then he could not have been shot in the mouth, by that stage...

« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 04:13:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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At the scene, Ralph Bamber slipped his trembling fingers from the cradle of the phone, allowing it to spring up and free the two plungers. No sooner had he done this, than a dialling tone echoed from the earpiece of the handset...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...