What REALLY Convinces You That Jeremy Is Innocent/Guilty?

[grahameb]

He was described as a 'crack shot' Maggie.

Ah! But according to scipio the murderer doesn't need to be a crack shot or even a particularly good shot. Now what can we say about this contradiction within the guilty camp?

[Caroline]

Ah! But according to scipio the murderer doesn't need to be a crack shot or even a particularly good shot. Now what can we say about this contradiction within the guilty camp?

What contradiction?

[scipio_usmc]

Can you provide documentation for this? I have been reading material that contradicts it - on several websites.

I can point out studies in journals that you would have to pay to access.  This though is what I posted the other day which is free to acess:

"Optimally effective doses appear to be around 50-100 mg/4 weeks. The use of doses above 100 mg/4 weeks is difficult to support given data available."

http://pb.rcpsych.org/content/29/3/104.full

The studies found a 2 percentage point difference in relapse rate between 100MG and 200MG.  It is considered not statistically significant given the margin or error. Above 100MG requires a greater dose of a countering agent and she studies found problems caused by these agents which undercut efficacy.  The countering agents are uppers so can cause agitation, insomnia and other problems that make things worse instead of better.

Here is how you are supposed to assess what to prescribe:

"Oral:
Initial dose: 0.5 to 5 mg orally 2 to 3 times a day.  Maintenance dose: 1 to 30 mg/day in 2 to 3 divided doses. Daily doses of up to 100 mg have been used. Infrequently, haloperidol has been used in doses above 100 mg for severely resistant patients; however, the limited clinical usage has not demonstrated the safety of prolonged administration of such doses.
 
Haloperidol decanoate:
Initial dose: 10 to 15 times the previous oral daily dose intramuscularly every 3 to 4 weeks. The initial dose should not exceed 100 mg and the balance should be given in 3 to 7 days."

http://www.drugs.com/dosage/haloperidol.html

I don't know what sites you go to on the web.  You need to go to medical sites that rely on journal findins if ou want accurate information about drugs.  Journal articles and studies are usually relied on in court but also with them discussed by an actual expert.  So even if you don't particularly like to use them since that is what courts care about their is no choice but to comb through them and discuss them when you are dealing with an issue like this in court.

 

[Alias]

I can point out studies in journals that you would have to pay to access.  This though is what I posted the other day which is free to acess:

"Optimally effective doses appear to be around 50-100 mg/4 weeks. The use of doses above 100 mg/4 weeks is difficult to support given data available."

http://pb.rcpsych.org/content/29/3/104.full

The studies found a 2 percentage point difference in relapse rate between 100MG and 200MG.  It is considered not statistically significant given the margin or error. Above 100MG requires a greater dose of a countering agent and she studies found problems caused by these agents which undercut efficacy.  The countering agents are uppers so can cause agitation, insomnia and other problems that make things worse instead of better.

Here is how you are supposed to assess what to prescribe:

"Oral:
Initial dose: 0.5 to 5 mg orally 2 to 3 times a day.  Maintenance dose: 1 to 30 mg/day in 2 to 3 divided doses. Daily doses of up to 100 mg have been used. Infrequently, haloperidol has been used in doses above 100 mg for severely resistant patients; however, the limited clinical usage has not demonstrated the safety of prolonged administration of such doses.
 
Haloperidol decanoate:
Initial dose: 10 to 15 times the previous oral daily dose intramuscularly every 3 to 4 weeks. The initial dose should not exceed 100 mg and the balance should be given in 3 to 7 days."

http://www.drugs.com/dosage/haloperidol.html

I don't know what sites you go to on the web. You need to go to medical sites that rely on journal findins if ou want accurate information about drugs.  Journal articles and studies are usually relied on in court but also with them discussed by an actual expert.  So even if you don't particularly like to use them since that is what courts care about their is no choice but to comb through them and discuss them when you are dealing with an issue like this in court.

First, thanks.
Secondly, it irritates me that you feel the need to write this. I am not an idiot.

[Jane]

I can point out studies in journals that you would have to pay to access.  This though is what I posted the other day which is free to acess:

"Optimally effective doses appear to be around 50-100 mg/4 weeks. The use of doses above 100 mg/4 weeks is difficult to support given data available."

http://pb.rcpsych.org/content/29/3/104.full

The studies found a 2 percentage point difference in relapse rate between 100MG and 200MG.  It is considered not statistically significant given the margin or error. Above 100MG requires a greater dose of a countering agent and she studies found problems caused by these agents which undercut efficacy.  The countering agents are uppers so can cause agitation, insomnia and other problems that make things worse instead of better.

Here is how you are supposed to assess what to prescribe:

"Oral:
Initial dose: 0.5 to 5 mg orally 2 to 3 times a day.  Maintenance dose: 1 to 30 mg/day in 2 to 3 divided doses. Daily doses of up to 100 mg have been used. Infrequently, haloperidol has been used in doses above 100 mg for severely resistant patients; however, the limited clinical usage has not demonstrated the safety of prolonged administration of such doses.
 
Haloperidol decanoate:
Initial dose: 10 to 15 times the previous oral daily dose intramuscularly every 3 to 4 weeks. The initial dose should not exceed 100 mg and the balance should be given in 3 to 7 days."

http://www.drugs.com/dosage/haloperidol.html

I don't know what sites you go to on the web.  You need to go to medical sites that rely on journal findins if ou want accurate information about drugs.  Journal articles and studies are usually relied on in court but also with them discussed by an actual expert.  So even if you don't particularly like to use them since that is what courts care about their is no choice but to comb through them and discuss them when you are dealing with an issue like this in court.

Were these the guidelines followed/understood in 1985? It occurs to me that we may have very different views on  medication NOW from those we had then.

[grahameb]

What contradiction?

Haven't you been reading my posts Caroline? The guilty camp use the fact that he Jeremy was a crack shot and that Sheils wasn't in order to prove that he was the murderer and they go on to prove he was a crack shot by saying that every shot met its target.
But scipio says Jeremy didn't need to to be a crack shot as he missed Ralph's head and didn't kill him outright. So who is right?

[Caroline]

I can point out studies in journals that you would have to pay to access.  This though is what I posted the other day which is free to acess:

"Optimally effective doses appear to be around 50-100 mg/4 weeks. The use of doses above 100 mg/4 weeks is difficult to support given data available."

http://pb.rcpsych.org/content/29/3/104.full

The studies found a 2 percentage point difference in relapse rate between 100MG and 200MG.  It is considered not statistically significant given the margin or error. Above 100MG requires a greater dose of a countering agent and she studies found problems caused by these agents which undercut efficacy.  The countering agents are uppers so can cause agitation, insomnia and other problems that make things worse instead of better.

Here is how you are supposed to assess what to prescribe:

"Oral:
Initial dose: 0.5 to 5 mg orally 2 to 3 times a day.  Maintenance dose: 1 to 30 mg/day in 2 to 3 divided doses. Daily doses of up to 100 mg have been used. Infrequently, haloperidol has been used in doses above 100 mg for severely resistant patients; however, the limited clinical usage has not demonstrated the safety of prolonged administration of such doses.
 
Haloperidol decanoate:
Initial dose: 10 to 15 times the previous oral daily dose intramuscularly every 3 to 4 weeks. The initial dose should not exceed 100 mg and the balance should be given in 3 to 7 days."

http://www.drugs.com/dosage/haloperidol.html

I don't know what sites you go to on the web.  You need to go to medical sites that rely on journal findins if ou want accurate information about drugs.  Journal articles and studies are usually relied on in court but also with them discussed by an actual expert.  So even if you don't particularly like to use them since that is what courts care about their is no choice but to comb through them and discuss them when you are dealing with an issue like this in court.

Firstly, are these recent studies? Secondly, are you aware whether or not there have been changes to the drug since 1985?

[Jan]

First, thanks.
Secondly, it irritates me that you feel the need to write this. I am not an idiot.

that makes me absurd and you an idiot

He obviously thinks he is some kind of higher being?

If only he got to know us - we are all so lovely . 

[Alias]

Were these the guidelines followed/understood in 1985? It occurs to me that we may have very different views on  medication NOW from those we had then.

As far as I can see from what I have read, higher dosage is still used in heavier cases, where the patient´s symptoms don´t diminish on lower dosage - up to 300mg in four weeks is the highest reported. At least up to 2008.
Also, it is still very dangerous to HALVE the dose - it is extremely dangerous to do that without monitoring the patient closely. Sheila got her dose halved and was not monitored at all. She was apparently "fine" for a period of time. Haldol injections peak six days after injection, then gradually wear off - halving time about 21 days, which means that Sheila was down on a dangerous less than a quarter of effect, since her last injection had been halved.
Very, very dangerous.

[Caroline]

Haven't you been reading my posts Caroline? The guilty camp use the fact that he Jeremy was a crack shot and that Sheils wasn't in order to prove that he was the murderer and they go on to prove he was a crack shot by saying that every shot met its target.
But scipio says Jeremy didn't need to to be a crack shot as he missed Ralph's head and didn't kill him outright. So who is right?

Well, I guess it boils down to - he was a crack shot but didn't need to be? 

[grahameb]

that makes me absurd and you an idiot

He obviously thinks he is some kind of higher being?

If only he got to know us - we are all so lovely . 

Of course he does because:
(1) He is an American

(2) He is an expert because he has had a girlfriend who was a nurse.

(2) There must be a third reason. There always is?

[Alias]

that makes me absurd and you an idiot

He obviously thinks he is some kind of higher being?

If only he got to know us - we are all so lovely . 

Why would he bother getting to know such lesser beings?   

[grahameb]

Well, I guess it boils down to - he was a crack shot but didn't need to be? 

Which of course opens the way for Sheila to be the murderer of course.

[Caroline]

Which of course opens the way for Sheila to be the murderer of course.

Of course.

[Jane]

As far as I can see from what I have read, higher dosage is still used in heavier cases, where the patient´s symptoms don´t diminish on lower dosage - up to 300mg in four weeks is the highest reported. At least up to 2008.
Also, it is still very dangerous to HALVE the dose - it is extremely dangerous to do that without monitoring the patient closely. Sheila got her dose halved and was not monitored at all. She was apparently "fine" for a period of time. Haldol injections peak six days after injection, then gradually wear off - halving time about 21 days, which means that Sheila was down on a dangerous less than a quarter of effect, since her last injection had been halved.
Very, very dangerous.

Alias, I'm SO sorry, I wasn't testing YOUR knowledge, I was questioning Scipio. I have consulted a psychiatrist friend and she bears out my own assertion that it is HIGHLY DANGEROUS to quickly reduce anti psychotics. It has to be done in slow stages and monitored.