foster care.

[Jane]

I've also read that June believed Colin smoked " dope ",one of her reasons for having objected to him having the boys on a full-time basis,hence her preferred foster-carers or friends of hers giving Sheila and the Bambers a break----------------but again,nothing concrete.
What a combination,one tanked-up with ale and the other spaced-out with cannabis.

I don't recall reading that either were addicted to alcohol or "substances".

[scipio_usmc]

I've just quoted that children have bumps and bruises, but not often scalds and a burn to the face,which spells out neglectful to me not anxious. Anxious is making sure that no harm comes to your children,such as not having a cigarette near them and making sure that all hot liquids are out of their reach. Lack of concentration was the problem,not anxiety.

You keep straining to say she abused her kids for nothing.  This issue is a red herring.  If her kids were went missing and were found beaten to death then whether she abused them would be relevant.  It would be evidence that could support they were beaten during a rage and this time it was carried too far and they died as a result of such abuse.  They were shot in their sleep as was June.  Nevill was shot as he was getting up and then again after making it to the kitchen.

Nor was there currently any abuse investigation going on which could have resulted in her being punished for abuse and thus as a result of such she decided to kill her kids, parents, and herself. The claims of abuse or not relevant at all and simply used by Jeremy supporters as a red herring to avoid dealing with the evidence that matters which they have no way of refuting.


 

[maggie]

Maggie, I've seen nothing to suggest it, however Sheila asked Ann to take a picture of her to send to Christine but asked her not to tell June. This makes me wonder if she did, in fact, WANT June to know because WHY would she ask Ann, otherwise. She could have asked Colin, who met Christine, or any of her London friends. I not suggesting she was being deliberately devious. It MAY have been subconscious.

Who knows, these thing are so complex. 
People assume June would not have wanted them to contact their birth parents but June and Nevill stayed in touch with Jeremy's natural parents for quite a few years after the adoption, I believe.  It's a fact that not all adoptive parents have problems with the natural family being involved in their children's lives although I believe it is more unusual. 
Some adoptive children choose to not contact their natural parents or keep this a secret because they make an assumption their adoptive parents may be hurt when this isn't the case, I imagine some adoptive children keep a meeting with their natural mother/parents a secret because they want it to be their secret removed from the adoptive family......  I've forgotten my original point. 

[mike tesko]

I think you are mistaken. FAR from being an absent parent, it seems that Colin had been their main carer, supported, I believe, by his mother. It was with him they were living at the time of the party. NONE, but some of those here who wish to find a "child cruelty" stick to beat Sheila with, have found her guilty of such. I have only just started looking, but no doubt when the times comes I will be in a far better position to provide chapter and verse of all the documented occasions when some form of abuse or neglect took place...

As for Colin's feelings about letting the children accompany Sheila to the farm, it was more a case of Sheila accompanying the children to the farm because the Bambers had requested a visit before the boys went on holiday with their father. He could have said, "NO", many single or lone parents have had thier children taken into care for putting thier childrens lives and saftey in danger. Colin obviously knew about the instable nature of Sheila at the time, and he also knew that June Bamber herself was trying to impose religeous mania upon and towards the children. Who was supposed to have been looking after the children when they stayed at the farm, Ralph Bamber? Another thing, sending his two young children to stay with Sheila and June, in an environment where firearms and various ammunitions were present in abundance, does not seem like a responsible way for any parent worth thier weight in salt to behave. How did Colin think Ralph would behave or react to being confronted by Colin about June Bambers abuse of his two children? He was going to keep that anger all to himself was he? It should be obvious to everyone and anybody that by the time Colin left whf on that occasiopn, that he had left behind an enviroment of intense dynamic pressure, where all three adults were either at each others throats, for one reason or another, or carrying intense resentment and anger around within themselves, until the late evening of the 6th August 1985, when everything came to a head at around supper time in the main kitchen at the farmhiouse, witness in part by Jeremy Bamber, himself...It's true that he may have seen himself as being between a rock and a hard place but on balance he probably thought they'd come to no harm with their grandparents. You can't really believe that knowing how Colin felt about June Bambers mistreatment of his two little boys...I fail to see why you think there to have been "an expectation of trouble" on this particular occasion, more than any other. There was obviously a vast build up, of intense pressure, which appears to have been building at the party with Sheila falling into relapse, a condition which worsened as time passed, including during the journey to the farmhouse where Colin confirms that she sat in total silence all the way there... Surely, had this been the case, he'd have informed the Bambers of any concerns he had re Sheila. You would have hoped so, but why would Colin confide in June Bamber, the fears he had over her mistreatment of the children, when he already had it in his mind to raise the matter with Ralph Bamber upon arriving there?As it was, she appeared no more than withdrawn and displaying classic signs of depression. She had at least two violent outbursts of temper after arriving at the farmhouse, once involving a 'Stationer' named, Douglas John Pike, and on a second occasion when an electricity meter reader attended the farmhouse, and she went off her head, ranting and raving, swearing, and threatening to harm him if he did not get off her land. Thirdly, a local witness reported that he had to hide behid a tree because he saw and heard Sheila wailing and screaming abuse as she fled along a footpath in the general direction of whf from the monastry at Tolleshunt Knights... A change of scenery MAY have been better for her than being on her own but it didn't work out like that did it...and it was going to be for less than a week., it only takes a moment to shoot someone. it takes four such moments, to shoot four victims, easily accommodated within the period she stayed at whf, or however long she intended to stay... Whatever his concerns re Sheila's illness and June's religiosity, he neither mentioned it NOR gave Neville the letter he'd written. Well, if that be the case, then that would be even worse, because if he had given the letter to Ralph Bamber, and failing that, if he had refused to leave his children in that environment, or spoken to SS to ask for advise about the possibility of leaving his children in a somewhat volatile environ, with guns and ammunition in abundance, then the loss of the two little ones lives, may have been spared...

You again refer to what you see as a volatile situation full of tensions and resentments, and I CAN see why Sheila, having met Christine, might feel this way about June but if June and Neville didn't know anything of her meeting with Christine there would be no need for them to have such feelings. If that had been the case, Sheila was fuelled by the secret she had in the forefront of her mind, which may have been a motivating feature in the harm Sheila went to whf intending to inflict when the opportunity arose for her to do it...As I've previously said, everything about Sheila's behaviour suggests her being too devoid of emotional energy to kill, She had a violent streak in her make up, she had already expressed on a previous occasion to her psychiatrist an intention to kill herself, and a desire to kill both of her children, because she thought they were devils, or had got the devil inside them...let alone employing a method totally alien to her.

[lookout]

I don't recall reading that either were addicted to alcohol or "substances".

I don't recall saying " addicted " either,but perhaps my memory is better than yours as each time that Sheila wanted to go home from wherever they were Colin was too drunk.
Wasn't cannabis found in Sheila's blood/urine,or am I imagining things again.

[Jane]

 
What a combination,one tanked-up with ale and the other spaced-out with cannabis.

I think the above is pretty close to saying their conditions are a permanent state.

[mike tesko]

You keep straining to say she abused her kids for nothing.  This issue is a red herring.  If her kids were went missing and were found beaten to death then whether she abused them would be relevant.  It would be evidence that could support they were beaten during a rage and this time it was carried too far and they died as a result of such abuse.  They were shot in their sleep as was June. June was not shot in her sleep in bed, PS Adams and other raid team officers agreed amongst themselves that June and Sheila must have been bible reading in the main bedroom when the trouble erupted...  Nevill was shot as he was getting up He wasn't, 4 dodgy empty bullet cases were introduced into the main bedroom scenario to facilitate such a lie, and PI 'Bob' Miller was directly involved in this deception...and then again after making it to the kitchen.

Nor was there currently any abuse investigation going on which could have resulted in her being punished for abuse There is an abundance of documentary evidence contradicting what you are saying...and thus as a result of such she decided to kill her kids, That was what police originally accepted she had done...parents, she did... and herself. she didn't kill herself, as I keep telling you... The claims of abuse or not relevant at all yes, they are, as is the fact that there was lengthy involvement by Social services, social workers, fostar carers and foster parents in the lives of Sheila, and her two boys - a fact which relatives had no knowlege of or about...and simply used by Jeremy supporters as a red herring How can it be a red herring if it is all true?to avoid dealing with the evidence that matters which was all circumstantial evidence in any event...which they have no way of refuting. Which can easily be refuted, once you accept involvement of a third party in the deaths of at least one of the five victims. This line of defence was not available to the defence, because the judge made it absolutely clear that there was no third party involvement in these killings, and that the killer was either Sheila Caffell, or Jeremy Bamber, one or the other, but no third party involvement. Under such conditions and circumstances how can it be argued that Jeremy Bambers trial was a fair one, when the jury were restricted to deciding guilt against one party that was not even on trial, (Sheila), or the other (Jeremy)? What happened to free choice...

[Jane]

I don't recall saying " addicted " either,but perhaps my memory is better than yours as each time that Sheila wanted to go home from wherever they were Colin was too drunk.
Wasn't cannabis found in Sheila's blood/urine,or am I imagining things again.

Negligible amounts of cannabis were found in Sheila. It doesn't mean she was addicted. Yes, there were times when Colin had one too many -I suspect there were times when it may have been convenient for him to SAY he'd had one too many. It doesn't mean he was addicted. MANY of us have been there.

[lookout]

You keep straining to say she abused her kids for nothing.  This issue is a red herring.  If her kids were went missing and were found beaten to death then whether she abused them would be relevant.  It would be evidence that could support they were beaten during a rage and this time it was carried too far and they died as a result of such abuse.  They were shot in their sleep as was June.  Nevill was shot as he was getting up and then again after making it to the kitchen.

Nor was there currently any abuse investigation going on which could have resulted in her being punished for abuse and thus as a result of such she decided to kill her kids, parents, and herself. The claims of abuse or not relevant at all and simply used by Jeremy supporters as a red herring to avoid dealing with the evidence that matters which they have no way of refuting.


 

I don't keep saying that she abused her children for nothing at all. I HATE the word abuse and prefer to call it neglect.
Probably the only time I'd use the word abuse was when describing June's psychological abuse of the twins when she would constantly Bible bash at them which Colin made very clear in his letter which was never produced though everyone will have seen it by now being as it's on the forum.

[mike tesko]

Another thing which concerns me, is that the toxicolgy reports relating to the other 4 victims have never yet been disclosed. What drugs had June Bamber and June Bamber been taking prior to thier deaths. What drugs if any had been administered to both child victims before they died? Had Ralph Bamber been drinking prior to his death, was he blind drunk? On and on the questions keep coming, with no answers, because it is not in the interests of the conviction which has been secured by a reliance upon dodgy evidence, to produce any information which might indicate how easily it would have been in those circumstances to over power Ralph Bamber in his drunken stupour...

[lookout]

I think the above is pretty close to saying their conditions are a permanent state.

Not necessarily.It's how you WISH to interpret it.

[Jane]

I don't keep saying that she abused her children for nothing at all. I HATE the word abuse and prefer to call it neglect.
Probably the only time I'd use the word abuse was when describing June's psychological abuse of the twins when she would constantly Bible bash at them which Colin made very clear in his letter which was never produced though everyone will have seen it by now being as it's on the forum.

It isn't necessary for you to labour the point that, at times, she neglected the boys. It's something we're all aware of.

I imagine that the boys COULD have been scared by June's type of religiosity -I know committed believers who were bought up in homes where God was kind and religion was about caring and sharing- I feel June's version was more adult oriented. OK, Colin wrote a letter but he neither gave it to Neville nor discussed its contents with him. I can't think why it would have been felt necessary to produce it in court.

[scipio_usmc]

June was not shot in her sleep in bed, PS Adams and other raid team officers agreed amongst themselves that June and Sheila must have been bible reading in the main bedroom when the trouble erupted...

Post evidence the raid officers thought such.  This is made up, the crime scene officers felt Sheila was too clean to have been the killer.  They didn't have all the evidence at that point.  They had no idea how many shots were fired at the time or where the adult victims were when the shooting commenced.  The bodies had to be autopsied and crime scene evidence had to be processed to determine such.

"Nevill was shot as he was getting up"
He wasn't, 4 dodgy empty bullet cases were introduced into the main bedroom scenario to facilitate such a lie, and PI 'Bob' Miller was directly involved in this deception...and then again after making it to the kitchen.

The whole reason the struggle in the kitchen happened is because the gun was empty.  The gun was empty because 6 shots were fired at June and 4 at Nevill in the bedroom.

Police had no reason to transfer cases to the bedroom.  Moreover, the bullet that grazed Nevill was found in the bedroom. At least 2 of the 4 shots to his left side were delivered while Nevill was not fully upright he was in the bed or in the process of rising. If he were fully upright then in order to shoot his face and upper arm the trajectory of the bullets would have been up instead of down. Was Sheila or Jeremy holding the rifle above their heads as they fired?  Get real shooting like this is not realistic:



Nor is there anything to suggest the shooter was standing on something while firing these shots.

[Jane]

Where have you been? it's long since been established that the Monastery story is a PACK OF LIES and I suspect that much of what you've put into that post may come from an over fertile imagination so I won't dignify it with a response.

[mike tesko]

Where have you been? it's long since been established that the Monastery story is a PACK OF LIES and I suspect that much of what you've put into that post may come from an over fertile imagination so I won't dignify it with a response.

Monastry episode was a true account...