Author Topic: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...  (Read 25560 times)

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Offline mike tesko

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #225 on: December 29, 2013, 08:03:PM »
MB's log gives Pc 1990 (Pc West's number) as the initial source, and the box containing that detail doesn't show any sign of alteration. Either way, both Pc West and MB must have been aware that JB was not the first source.

Hi Reader,

There is no guarantee that (1990) was recorded alongside CD when the main body of the phone message was received from CD. It could well be that as the information contained upon the form was evolving, and PC West had contacted MB after Jeremy had eventually got around to contacting police at 3:36am, that (1990) was added alongside the original sender details of CD...
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 08:10:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #226 on: December 29, 2013, 08:15:PM »
I also would like to question the following entry, concerning to which part of phone log 3:26am, it refers to...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #227 on: December 29, 2013, 08:18:PM »
The fact is, that Jeremy did not pass any message to CD at all - which leads me to conclude that this section of the phone log, is referring to information given to police by Jeremy at the scene, regarding the guns kept inside whf by his father, a collection of shotguns and .410's...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #228 on: December 29, 2013, 08:20:PM »
The fact is, that Jeremy did not pass any message to CD at all - which leads me to conclude that this section of the phone log, is referring to information given to police by Jeremy at the scene, regarding the guns kept inside whf by his father, a collection of shotguns and .410's...

information which was given to police by Jeremy at the scene, was passed to CD - collection of shotguns and .410's...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Jan

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #229 on: December 29, 2013, 08:22:PM »
Jeremy did not vomit. He said nothing came up. Mugford said Jeremy knew how to make himself sick. It obviously did not work this time.

crass comment - clutching at straws.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #230 on: December 29, 2013, 08:26:PM »
When the occupants of CA07 passed the situation report from the scene, culminating in a request to send out the firearms unit, to whom was that call passed to - "CD" by any chance, or "MB"?
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #231 on: December 29, 2013, 08:29:PM »
When the occupants of CA07 passed the situation report from the scene, culminating in a request to send out the firearms unit, to whom was that call passed to - "CD" by any chance, or "MB"?

If the situation report from CA07 at the scene was passed to "CD", requesting the attendance of the firearms team, it may well have been at the same time that CA07 passed information given to them by Jeremy regarding his fathers collection of guns, shotguns, and .410's...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Roch

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #232 on: December 29, 2013, 08:31:PM »
The fact is, that Jeremy did not pass any message to CD at all - which leads me to conclude that this section of the phone log, is referring to information given to police by Jeremy at the scene, regarding the guns kept inside whf by his father, a collection of shotguns and .410's...

That's what I always thought

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #233 on: December 29, 2013, 08:41:PM »
That's what I always thought

Hi Roch,

Yes, I believe this is the correct interpretation - the problem with the entire contents of MB's 3.26am phone log, are that it does not record all the information received at the same time, various parts of the logs content is recorded at different times, the log is evolving with the passing of time, with information coming in and being recorded from several different sources, not just PC West, or Jeremy Bamber via some third party...
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 08:44:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Reader

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #234 on: December 29, 2013, 09:22:PM »
There is no guarantee that (1990) was recorded alongside CD when the main body of the phone message was received from CD.
Normal procedure would be for the caller to provide their identity so that it could be noted. It would be strange for MB to write CD without also writing the caller's name or number at the same time.

The fact is, that Jeremy did not pass any message to CD at all
That's not established fact - it's an opinion. CD refers to the control room at Chelmsford Police Station, where Pc West was working. Pc West stated he asked Jeremy about the guns at WHF. He also stated that Jeremy gave him details of them, although it seems these weren't written into his log.

When the occupants of CA07 passed the situation report from the scene, culminating in a request to send out the firearms unit, to whom was that call passed to - "CD" by any chance, or "MB"?
The report was almost certainly sent to HQIR, where MB was working - there was no reason to pass it to CD, and there's no evidence that CD received such a report or request from the scene. You are proposing this mainly because Jeremy doesn't recall telling Pc West about the various weapons kept at WHF. The simplest explanation is that Jeremy did do so, but later forgot that he had done so. He was asked again about this at the scene, and that's apparently what stuck in his memory.

If the situation report from CA07 at the scene was passed to "CD", requesting the attendance of the firearms team, it may well have been at the same time that CA07 passed information given to them by Jeremy regarding his fathers collection of guns, shotguns, and .410's...
It would have made much more sense for this request to be made to HQIR. There's no good evidence that any information was passed direct from the scene to CD, and there was no reason for that to occur.

Offline gringo

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #235 on: December 30, 2013, 02:20:AM »
This is a plausible account, particularly since if when Ralph made his call to Jeremy (around 3.25am) and the line at whf was being monitored, and the distress call was intercepted, causing those responsible for eavesdropping of the call to contact police HQ, might this have been the reason or cause for the line going dead between Ralph and Jeremy (temporarily), and which led to the line producing an engaged tone by the time Jeremy tried to re-establish contact with Ralph, upon redialing...

Phone records exist concerning Ralphs call being recorded as being received by police at 3:26am, some 10 minutes before Jeremy himself made the call to PC West at 3:36am, which has been presented as a true record of the call made to Jeremy by Ralph Bamber (about 10 minutes earlier). In your explanation, the paraphrased account in MB's (3:26am) phone log record, could easily be an account of Ralph's call to Jeremy intercepted by the spooks, couched in terms passed on by them, which would be the perfect explanation to account for the grammatical differences recorded in the two logs...

It is also likely...

if the spooks had been monitoring the phone line at whf as part of a protection program, or if the drugs squad had been monitoring it as part of an ongoing international drug investigation, it might account for why Sheila's age was given as 26 years of age, with Sheila's birthday falling on 18th July (less than a month before her death), when in fact she was 27...

It will therefore be necessary to establish the date when threats to kill Ralph Bamber and his family were
 made, when and if a protection program involving special branch was put into operation, and or, if there was any sort of drugs operation ongoing into whf and Jeremy / Sheila / Freddie the coke, and others, at the material time...
As far as released records are concerned, it isn't known whether the telephone line at WHF or at 9 Head St was on intercept on the night in question, or, if it was, whether it was being intercepted by BT on behalf of the police or direct by the police (which would have been somewhat unusual). Also, there's no released record that confirms a panic alarm was fitted then. Even if there was, it wouldn't be related to interception of the line. The main reason for doubting your scenario is that MB's log (as released) states nothing that specifically suggests its first paragraph was based on any direct source other than Pc West. If the police used intelligence already held that included ages, why would Sheila's age from that source be incorrect? If Nevill didn't speak to the police, how come MB's log uses the word "berserk", whereas PC West used "crazy" (which is what Jeremy said his dad used)? Your scenario doesn't help explain why there was a 9-minute gap according to MB's log between when he started the log and when the first car was sent.
Thanks for replies Mike and Reader.
     MB's log as you say has nothing to indicate any direct source other than West but the paraphrasing and age difference is more problematical if we believe that West is the sender, which leaves us looking for alternative explanations which seem more plausible. Your reasoning would also rule out the call being from Nevill for the same reason.
    Police intelligence on the ages could quite easily be wrong as Mike observed (was Sheila 26 when the surveillance began ?)
   If the call was intercepted I could quite easily imagine the message being passed on in such a way. It is conceivable that when passing on details of the intercept that it was phrased something like ," have just received intelligence via intercept that Nevill Bamber's daughter has got hold of one of his guns and is going berserk."
     The 9 minute gap rather than being an anomaly in this scenario is in fact supportive . The log was started at 3.26 and then Bonnett has to receive and write down the message before sending a car and 8 or 9 minutes is not an unreasonable length of time to do this.
     It is certainly a problem with the one call scenario that a car is sent before the call is even received.
     I don't claim that the above is definitely what happened but it makes more sense of the discrepancies in my opinion.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #236 on: December 30, 2013, 06:51:AM »
Normal procedure would be for the caller to provide their identity so that it could be noted. It would be strange for MB to write CD without also writing the caller's name or number at the same time.
That's not established fact - it's an opinion. CD refers to the control room at Chelmsford Police Station, where Pc West was working. Pc West stated he asked Jeremy about the guns at WHF. He also stated that Jeremy gave him details of them, although it seems these weren't written into his log.
The report was almost certainly sent to HQIR, where MB was working - there was no reason to pass it to CD, and there's no evidence that CD received such a report or request from the scene. You are proposing this mainly because Jeremy doesn't recall telling Pc West about the various weapons kept at WHF. The simplest explanation is that Jeremy did do so, but later forgot that he had done so. He was asked again about this at the scene, and that's apparently what stuck in his memory.
It would have made much more sense for this request to be made to HQIR. There's no good evidence that any information was passed direct from the scene to CD, and there was no reason for that to occur.

Hi Reader,

the log (3:26am) under scrutiny may be a re-write of the original version, introduced later on, in the same way that crucial messages in the original wireless message logs have been re-written on blank pieces of paper in a substitution exercise...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Reader

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #237 on: December 31, 2013, 01:48:PM »
. . . Your reasoning would also rule out the call being from Nevill for the same reason.
Yes, that is so. If Pc West did receive two calls, one from Nevill and then one from Jeremy, it's slightly surprising that his log of Jeremy's call doesn't refer to the previous call, and he presumably logged the previous call separately - it would be interesting to compare that log with MB's log.

Police intelligence on the ages could quite easily be wrong as Mike observed (was Sheila 26 when the surveillance began?)
It's possible. I would think the police would normally try to verify an age by finding the date of birth, but that might have been difficult as Sheila was adopted.

The 9 minute gap rather than being an anomaly in this scenario is in fact supportive. The log was started at 3.26 and then Bonnett has to receive and write down the message before sending a car and 8 or 9 minutes is not an unreasonable length of time to do this.
Priority should be given to sending a car once the need for one is evident. If necessary, MB could have signalled other person to do so. Even if he didn't, 8 or 9 minutes is a really long time in my opinion, given the obvious urgency of dealing with someone who has gone berserk and possesses a firearm.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #238 on: January 02, 2014, 10:22:PM »
"Hello, is that Malcolm Bonnert, Hi, Dastardly, here, Ralph Bamber has just alert his son, Jeremy, to the fact that his daughter has got hold of one of his guns, and has gone berserk, can you send a unit to the scene ASAP, please, ta, thanks, okey dokey, chow, adios"...
"By jove, I did something Mutley, I actually did something"...
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 10:25:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Undecided

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Re: Telephone issue - Extravaganza...
« Reply #239 on: February 23, 2014, 03:32:PM »
Now, also consider this:-
Apologies, if this has been addressed already (but its a long thread and I haven’t managed to take in  everything yet)
But, could a disconnect of the external line into the house have been used to accomplish the same 2 minute "forced release" ? and was this ever investigated ? If the phone line had been disabled would this have registered at the exchange ? Could the line have been disabled prior to the murders and reconnected later ?
One often sees remote farm houses with a single line telephone cable running over farm land fields. 
How far was the next junction box from WHF ?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 10:03:AM by Undecided »