Photograph of Shiela on the bed

[mike tesko]

Marks that may be found on the back of the leg is speculation. I think if June had been layed on her front when livor mortis formed the darkening would have been more toward the front of her legs. Also if she was on a ruffled quilt the pattern on the front of her legs would be different as the pressure would have been different in different places (if that makes any sence).

Yes.

I think it's just muddying the waters to introduce new theories that she was on her stomach, especially as the photo doesn't indicate anything of the sort, and the livor mortis is compatible with her being on her back.

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or on her front...

[mike tesko]

This is just more of the same old speculative unsubstantiated theory.

The currently accepted fact is that Sheila and June were found on the floor as per the photographs which are available and as per police officers witness statements.

Yes there is a note by Ann which conflicts with this but is in itself based on hearsay and is not considered stronger evidence than police officers witness statements.

Mike says there is a photograph of Sheila on the bed, personally I won't accept that until I've seen it, nor am I convinced that it even exists anywhere outside of Mikes imagination. In any event even if such a photograph exists it still wouldn't necessarily prove anything in it's own right, what it would or wouldn't prove can not possibly be interpreted from a 30 second glance at this alleged photo on somebody else's desk several years ago. If it's such a smoking gun then what the heck are the defence doing about obtaining it?

Mikes theory on June originally being found on the bed and then propped up against the door just seems ludicrous to me, especially when it's only based on liver mortis patterns which are already consistent with her body being found as reported.

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unless its true...

[mike tesko]

How strange that no crime scene photograph of the bed allegedly slept in, was taken, or exists?

Unless of course they do and are in the "withheld" file?

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in which case, why didn't the prosecution produce them at the trial to show that Sheila had been sleeping in her bed?

[mike tesko]

Other officers who allegedly saw Sheila after DR Craig carried out his very brief examination, described the blood that was coming out from the corner of her mouth as running and leaking...

What you have got to remember is that Dr Craig, and PI Miller, made a false witness statement about Sheila only having one wound? So, which wound was that one then?

They may have meant that it had run and leaked. I don't think they used those actual words did they?

..............

No at least one police officer mentions in a witness statement that  the blood running from the sides of Sheila's mouth...

[mike tesko]

You can tell by looking at the above photograph that June Bamber appears to have been laid face down after she died, and that whoever placed her on the floor next to the door, set her down there on her back - you can see the white patches where the legs had been in contact with a surface, and tell by the way her legs have started to discolor...

The white patches are indicative of blood drain during livor motis when the blood is fluid still but will start to settle according to gravity (more or less), youu can see the purple accumulation of blood in her calf....
however, blood will still flow and settle if moved during this stage (couple of hours) after that, the blood no longer flows with regard to position.

Basically you can't see anything from this pic, BUT it does support her being on her back. The white marks certainly don't suggest she's been on her front (IF she was on her front for over 2 hours after death)

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How can you say that, there was no time of death given?

[TheBrilliantMistake]

You can tell by looking at the above photograph that June Bamber appears to have been laid face down after she died, and that whoever placed her on the floor next to the door, set her down there on her back - you can see the white patches where the legs had been in contact with a surface, and tell by the way her legs have started to discolor...

The white patches are indicative of blood drain during livor motis when the blood is fluid still but will start to settle according to gravity (more or less), youu can see the purple accumulation of blood in her calf....
however, blood will still flow and settle if moved during this stage (couple of hours) after that, the blood no longer flows with regard to position.

Basically you can't see anything from this pic, BUT it does support her being on her back. The white marks certainly don't suggest she's been on her front (IF she was on her front for over 2 hours after death)

-----------------------

How can you say that, there was no time of death given?

Where have I made a single reference to TOD?
I make only observations on the effects of blood and skin tone after death.

Ultimately for a couple of hours after death, she could be in ANY position and the effects not be 'finalised'. After this, the effects start to become like a photograph and don't go away.

So again I ask, where do I mention or imply any time of death? or that the observations rely upon such? they don't.

[mike tesko]

According to JB,the conversation and sighting DID occur.JB possibly relied on it as part of his defence.However,at trial,pc Bews told of a slightly different version of events that did not back up JBs claims.I am not surprised by this at all!

So Bews said what he said later? That Myall saw a movement which turned out to be a trick of the light? Bews and Jeremy never saw anyone at all?

So much for all this racing back to the car story then.

-----------------------

Your account is inaccurate and misleading, since all three saw the figure at the bedroom window and it was no trick of light, or as the case may be, the moon reflecting on the glass of the bedroom window. They saw a person at the bedroom window, I have spoken to Jeremy about this on many occasions, there was a figure stood to the right hand side of the bedroom window, which stood there for about a minute or two, which caused the two police officers and Jeremy to duck behind a wall in the garden. Then the figure walked across the opening of the bedroom window, from right to left (as viewed from the vantage point of the police and Jeremy). As soon as the figure disappeared from right to left and out of sight, the two police officers and Jeremy set off racing out of the grounds back to the patrol car which was parked up in Pages Lane containing PS Saxby, and PC Myall passed a radio message to the incident room, updating them about what they had all just seen, and a request for the firearms team to be sent out to the scene...

I have asked Jeremy countless times, if he could identify the person they all saw, and Jeremy says not, it was just the silhouetted figure of a person, that was stood at the right side of the bedroom window, and then it walked across the window - it was definitely a person that they all saw, and as far as Jeremy is concerned it proved that someone was still very much alive inside the farmhouse at that stage...

A police record exists where PC Myall refers to having seen an unidentified male at the scene (whf) with no further information about the circumstances in which the sighting was made, but it is believed that it was the sighting of the person at the bedroom window. If Ture, the person they saw at the bedroom window was non other than Ralph Bamber...

[Janet (Formerly known as Takeshi)]

How strange that no crime scene photograph of the bed allegedly slept in, was taken, or exists?

Unless of course they do and are in the "withheld" file?

--------------------------

in which case, why didn't the prosecution produce them at the trial to show that Sheila had been sleeping in her bed?

Why would they? What would it prove or disprove?

[Kaldin]

Well I don't agree with you. I think you're trying to make it fit with your own theories. There is nothing to indicate that June was on her stomach at any point. The top part of her legs would not have consistent white bits at all - more compression would be needed for that. Her legs are white at the top because the blood has drained to the lower parts - as per livor mortis.

Why on earth would June be on her stomach anyway?

You have absolutely no proof at all, that there is no evidence of livor mortis on the bottom part of her legs - you are speculating about something you cannot see...

Come off it - the picture shows livor mortis consistent with her being on her back for some time. You're the one speculating that there is livor mortis on the part of her legs nearest the floor, not me.

[Kaldin]

Other officers who allegedly saw Sheila after DR Craig carried out his very brief examination, described the blood that was coming out from the corner of her mouth as running and leaking...

What you have got to remember is that Dr Craig, and PI Miller, made a false witness statement about Sheila only having one wound? So, which wound was that one then?

They may have meant that it had run and leaked. I don't think they used those actual words did they?

..............

No at least one police officer mentions in a witness statement that  the blood running from the sides of Sheila's mouth...

What were their exact words?

Dr Craig said it was dried blood.

[Kaldin]

According to JB,the conversation and sighting DID occur.JB possibly relied on it as part of his defence.However,at trial,pc Bews told of a slightly different version of events that did not back up JBs claims.I am not surprised by this at all!

So Bews said what he said later? That Myall saw a movement which turned out to be a trick of the light? Bews and Jeremy never saw anyone at all?

So much for all this racing back to the car story then.

-----------------------

Your account is inaccurate and misleading, since all three saw the figure at the bedroom window and it was no trick of light, or as the case may be, the moon reflecting on the glass of the bedroom window. They saw a person at the bedroom window, I have spoken to Jeremy about this on many occasions, there was a figure stood to the right hand side of the bedroom window, which stood there for about a minute or two, which caused the two police officers and Jeremy to duck behind a wall in the garden. Then the figure walked across the opening of the bedroom window, from right to left (as viewed from the vantage point of the police and Jeremy). As soon as the figure disappeared from right to left and out of sight, the two police officers and Jeremy set off racing out of the grounds back to the patrol car which was parked up in Pages Lane containing PS Saxby, and PC Myall passed a radio message to the incident room, updating them about what they had all just seen, and a request for the firearms team to be sent out to the scene...

I have asked Jeremy countless times, if he could identify the person they all saw, and Jeremy says not, it was just the silhouetted figure of a person, that was stood at the right side of the bedroom window, and then it walked across the window - it was definitely a person that they all saw, and as far as Jeremy is concerned it proved that someone was still very much alive inside the farmhouse at that stage...

A police record exists where PC Myall refers to having seen an unidentified male at the scene (whf) with no further information about the circumstances in which the sighting was made, but it is believed that it was the sighting of the person at the bedroom window. If Ture, the person they saw at the bedroom window was non other than Ralph Bamber...

It's not my account, it's PS Bews' account.

Are you seriously telling me that the one thing which could have acquitted Jeremy was not brought into evidence at the trial? Are you seriously telling me that the defence would not have quizzed PS Bews more and challenged him? Are you seriously telling me that the defence would not have asked PC Myall about it?

COME OFF IT!

[mike tesko]

You can tell by looking at the above photograph that June Bamber appears to have been laid face down after she died, and that whoever placed her on the floor next to the door, set her down there on her back - you can see the white patches where the legs had been in contact with a surface, and tell by the way her legs have started to discolor...

The white patches are indicative of blood drain during livor motis when the blood is fluid still but will start to settle according to gravity (more or less), youu can see the purple accumulation of blood in her calf....
however, blood will still flow and settle if moved during this stage (couple of hours) after that, the blood no longer flows with regard to position.

Basically you can't see anything from this pic, BUT it does support her being on her back. The white marks certainly don't suggest she's been on her front (IF she was on her front for over 2 hours after death)

-----------------------

How can you say that, there was no time of death given?

Where have I made a single reference to TOD?
I make only observations on the effects of blood and skin tone after death.

Ultimately for a couple of hours after death, she could be in ANY position and the effects not be 'finalised'. After this, the effects start to become like a photograph and don't go away.

So again I ask, where do I mention or imply any time of death? or that the observations rely upon such? they don't.

---------------------------------

There will be varying traces of livor mortis on the skin, which can give clues as to how many times the body was moved before it ended up in its final resting place. If you look at the picture which shows Junes legs, the blood in her legs does not appear to have settled all at the same time by a process of gravity, it is all over the place - I get the impression from looking at those images of her legs that she was laid face down at some point, on the quilt of the bed, and her feet were hanging over the edge of the bed, or not in contact with the quilt upon which the rest of her body was resting against...

The process of livor mortis commences after death in varying degrees of severity, your comments suggested that she had been dead about two hours and that the white patches on the top part of her legs was consistent with this view, but by the time PC Bird (SOC) took this particular photograph, one and a half hours had already elapsed since the raid team entered the house, and if Jeremy killed June and the others, June would have had to be there on the bedroom floor for at least seven hours or more...

There was no equivalent livor mortis on the skin of Sheila when PC Bird photographed her body there in that bedroom - so based upon your suggestion that livor mortis would start to develop or show after two hours, does this mean that Sheila did not die until after 8am?

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Give it up.

Credibility just went right out of the window!

[Kaldin]

The issue of Sheila is a separate one - the photo of June does not indicate that she was on her stomach at any point in my opinion.

[mike tesko]

According to JB,the conversation and sighting DID occur.JB possibly relied on it as part of his defence.However,at trial,pc Bews told of a slightly different version of events that did not back up JBs claims.I am not surprised by this at all!

So Bews said what he said later? That Myall saw a movement which turned out to be a trick of the light? Bews and Jeremy never saw anyone at all?

So much for all this racing back to the car story then.

-----------------------

Your account is inaccurate and misleading, since all three saw the figure at the bedroom window and it was no trick of light, or as the case may be, the moon reflecting on the glass of the bedroom window. They saw a person at the bedroom window, I have spoken to Jeremy about this on many occasions, there was a figure stood to the right hand side of the bedroom window, which stood there for about a minute or two, which caused the two police officers and Jeremy to duck behind a wall in the garden. Then the figure walked across the opening of the bedroom window, from right to left (as viewed from the vantage point of the police and Jeremy). As soon as the figure disappeared from right to left and out of sight, the two police officers and Jeremy set off racing out of the grounds back to the patrol car which was parked up in Pages Lane containing PS Saxby, and PC Myall passed a radio message to the incident room, updating them about what they had all just seen, and a request for the firearms team to be sent out to the scene...

I have asked Jeremy countless times, if he could identify the person they all saw, and Jeremy says not, it was just the silhouetted figure of a person, that was stood at the right side of the bedroom window, and then it walked across the window - it was definitely a person that they all saw, and as far as Jeremy is concerned it proved that someone was still very much alive inside the farmhouse at that stage...

A police record exists where PC Myall refers to having seen an unidentified male at the scene (whf) with no further information about the circumstances in which the sighting was made, but it is believed that it was the sighting of the person at the bedroom window. If Ture, the person they saw at the bedroom window was non other than Ralph Bamber...

It's not my account, it's PS Bews' account.

Are you seriously telling me that the one thing which could have acquitted Jeremy was not brought into evidence at the trial? Are you seriously telling me that the defence would not have quizzed PS Bews more and challenged him? Are you seriously telling me that the defence would not have asked PC Myall about it?

COME OFF IT!

----------------------------

The account I have given is accurate - I cannot be held accountable for what Jeremy's legal team, may have done, or not done, at the trial...