Photograph of Shiela on the bed

[Kaldin]

Well I don't agree with you. I think you're trying to make it fit with your own theories. There is nothing to indicate that June was on her stomach at any point. The top part of her legs would not have consistent white bits at all - more compression would be needed for that. Her legs are white at the top because the blood has drained to the lower parts - as per livor mortis.

Why on earth would June be on her stomach anyway?

[karma]

Marks that may be found on the back of the leg is speculation. I think if June had been layed on her front when livor mortis formed the darkening would have been more toward the front of her legs. Also if she was on a ruffled quilt the pattern on the front of her legs would be different as the pressure would have been different in different places (if that makes any sence).

[Kaldin]

Marks that may be found on the back of the leg is speculation. I think if June had been layed on her front when livor mortis formed the darkening would have been more toward the front of her legs. Also if she was on a ruffled quilt the pattern on the front of her legs would be different as the pressure would have been different in different places (if that makes any sence).

Yes.

I think it's just muddying the waters to introduce new theories that she was on her stomach, especially as the photo doesn't indicate anything of the sort, and the livor mortis is compatible with her being on her back.

[Hartley]

This is just more of the same old speculative unsubstantiated theory.

The currently accepted fact is that Sheila and June were found on the floor as per the photographs which are available and as per police officers witness statements.

Yes there is a note by Ann which conflicts with this but is in itself based on hearsay and is not considered stronger evidence than police officers witness statements.

Mike says there is a photograph of Sheila on the bed, personally I won't accept that until I've seen it, nor am I convinced that it even exists anywhere outside of Mikes imagination. In any event even if such a photograph exists it still wouldn't necessarily prove anything in it's own right, what it would or wouldn't prove can not possibly be interpreted from a 30 second glance at this alleged photo on somebody else's desk several years ago. If it's such a smoking gun then what the heck are the defence doing about obtaining it?

Mikes theory on June originally being found on the bed and then propped up against the door just seems ludicrous to me, especially when it's only based on liver mortis patterns which are already consistent with her body being found as reported.

[Kaldin]

Was Myall asked about it at the trial?

Im pretty certain that Myall did not give evidence at the trial.

It seems that PC Myall did give evidence at the trial.

Haven't had a chance to read it yet though.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,185.0.html

[Kaldin]

How strange that Mr Rivlin didn't ask PC Myall if he had seen anyone at a window. 

[Janet (Formerly known as Takeshi)]

How strange that Mr Rivlin didn't ask PC Myall if he had seen anyone at a window. 

I agree.

[Kaldin]

How strange that Mr Rivlin didn't ask PC Myall if he had seen anyone at a window. 

I agree.

So either it didn't happen, or Mr Rivlin forgot to ask about it ...

[mike tesko]

Going back to the comment Mike made about June could have walked around the room and she was maybe the figure that the 2 police officers and JB thought that they saw in the window.Im a bit confused about this.Did the main bedroom at the front of the house also have a rear window within the same room? Because it has been stated that the room as to which they were referring to as having maybe seen someone moving around in was actually the top right hand window at the rear of the house!

No. The main bedroom had one window I think. There is a window at the side, but I think that must be in the bedroom next to the main one - the room between the main bedroom and the boys' room - that room can be accessed by a door next to the bed.

I agree that PS Bews said the movement was at a completely different window, so I have no idea where this story about figures walking across windows has come from or why it was not mentioned at the trial.

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Jeremy has confirmed that the window where they all saw the figure was the main bedroom window, not any other window...

[mike tesko]

If you look carefully enough, you can see an impression on the top pillow, where the back of Sheila's head was resting at some point before 10 am...

Or it could be from Nevill ...

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There is no evidence that Neville had been sleeping or resting in that bed that night - unless you can direct me towards it...

Well since that was his bed I think it's reasonable to assume that he was in it at some point that night. There's no evidence that Sheila was on the bed either ....

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There are only womens clothes on the chairs in the bedroom, nothing to suggest that a man such as Ralph had removed his clothes in the bedroom and got into bed...

Only womens clothing in the bedroom...

It gives a big clue...

in my opinion...

I don't think it's possible to see exactly what clothes were in the room.

According to Woodcock, a bed in Sheila's room had been used. Do you think that Nevill might have used it?

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How strange that no crime scene photograph of the bed allegedly slept in, was taken, or exists?

[Kaldin]

Going back to the comment Mike made about June could have walked around the room and she was maybe the figure that the 2 police officers and JB thought that they saw in the window.Im a bit confused about this.Did the main bedroom at the front of the house also have a rear window within the same room? Because it has been stated that the room as to which they were referring to as having maybe seen someone moving around in was actually the top right hand window at the rear of the house!

No. The main bedroom had one window I think. There is a window at the side, but I think that must be in the bedroom next to the main one - the room between the main bedroom and the boys' room - that room can be accessed by a door next to the bed.

I agree that PS Bews said the movement was at a completely different window, so I have no idea where this story about figures walking across windows has come from or why it was not mentioned at the trial.

--------------------------

Jeremy has confirmed that the window where they all saw the figure was the main bedroom window, not any other window...

OK, so that contradicts what PS Bews said.

Why didn't it come up at the trial by the way? PC Myall doesn't appear to have been asked anything about it.

[Janet (Formerly known as Takeshi)]

How strange that no crime scene photograph of the bed allegedly slept in, was taken, or exists?

Unless of course they do and are in the "withheld" file?

[Kaldin]

If you look carefully enough, you can see an impression on the top pillow, where the back of Sheila's head was resting at some point before 10 am...

Or it could be from Nevill ...

----------------------------

There is no evidence that Neville had been sleeping or resting in that bed that night - unless you can direct me towards it...

Well since that was his bed I think it's reasonable to assume that he was in it at some point that night. There's no evidence that Sheila was on the bed either ....

---------------------------------

There are only womens clothes on the chairs in the bedroom, nothing to suggest that a man such as Ralph had removed his clothes in the bedroom and got into bed...

Only womens clothing in the bedroom...

It gives a big clue...

in my opinion...

I don't think it's possible to see exactly what clothes were in the room.

According to Woodcock, a bed in Sheila's room had been used. Do you think that Nevill might have used it?

------------------------

How strange that no crime scene photograph of the bed allegedly slept in, was taken, or exists?

Maybe, but I think it's a bit of a red herring anyway. If Sheila didn't go to bed, she could have shot the family, and if she did go to bed she could still have shot the family. The only difference it could make to Jeremy is that he could claim that if her bed wasn't used, she must have been rampaging round the house killing the family instead.  That doesn't necessarily follow though.

[mike tesko]

Well I don't agree with you. I think you're trying to make it fit with your own theories. There is nothing to indicate that June was on her stomach at any point. The top part of her legs would not have consistent white bits at all - more compression would be needed for that. Her legs are white at the top because the blood has drained to the lower parts - as per livor mortis.

Why on earth would June be on her stomach anyway?

You have absolutely no proof at all, that there is no evidence of livor mortis on the bottom part of her legs - you are speculating about something you cannot see...

[mike tesko]

Marks that may be found on the back of the leg is speculation. I think if June had been layed on her front when livor mortis formed the darkening would have been more toward the front of her legs. Also if she was on a ruffled quilt the pattern on the front of her legs would be different as the pressure would have been different in different places (if that makes any sence).

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I disagree, it would depend upon how her legs rested against the folded, fuddled quilt of the bed...