Author Topic: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children  (Read 21273 times)

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Offline killingeve

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Hi Steve_uk

IMO absolutely 100% yes.  Along with adoption psychology and adoption reunions.

Boris and Zeanah identified cases where a young child has no preferred adult caregiver and then go on to identify the poor outcomes associated with this.

It is not just that SC had abrupt changes from multiple caregivers but the fact that it is likely there was some neglect as a result of June's severe depression caused BT adopting SC ie unresponsiveness.  Was SC fed, watered, changed, bathed, held and soothed as most primary care givers are able to do with the baby/small child in their care.  When this doesn't happen it feeds into implicit memory and can cause problems in later life. 

You might recall from Colin's book where he recounts SC telling him she can recall being left in a garden in a pram for hours simply left to cry  :'( :'( :'(

Also where SC shares her frustration/dissatisfaction of June arriving to pick her up from school wearing brogues and tweeds and commenting that the other mothers wore jeans.  This in itself seems pretty benign but it illustrates that in SC's mind her mother ie June was different from other mothers.  And was sufficiently strong to discuss years later with her husband.

We hear much evidence from Dr F, CC, Freddie and SC's friend's about SC's unhappy/unsatisfactory relationship with June.  So much she went in search of her birth mother it appears in an attempt to form a mother/daughter relationship rather than just simple curiosity. 

The reunion took place only a few weeks prior to the murders and IMO this along with the above and other issues discussed on here culminated in the shot between the eyes June received. 

Does anyone know who looked after SC whilst June was in hospital?  Did NB take time out from the farm?  Perhaps PB?  June's war friend Agnes (I believe)?  Foster carers?  Social services?

Hi there NN.  Yes it's not just abrupt and multiple changes in primary care givers but also neglect.  I guess we associate neglect with the likes of Baby P and struggle to see perhaps how SC suffered neglect by anything the likes of June Bamber did or didn't do.  However if a primary caregiver is unresponsive and unable to meet the babies needs due to her own mental health, in June's case severe depression, sadly that is neglect.  Neglect is neglect it does not distinguish between intentional and unintentional neglect.  This is the effect neglect has on the developing brain:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/children_shealth/9637682/Whats-the-difference-between-these-two-brains.html

The article identifies many of SC's symptoms:

- less intelligent
- less able to empathise with others
- more likely to become addicted to drugs
- and involved in violent crime
- more likely to be unemployed
- to be dependent on welfare
- lack of educational attainment
- develop mental and serious health problems

Offline killingeve

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2013, 11:22:PM »
Hi there NN.  Yes it's not just abrupt and multiple changes in primary care givers but also neglect.  I guess we associate neglect with the likes of Baby P and struggle to see perhaps how SC suffered neglect by anything the likes of June Bamber did or didn't do.  However if a primary caregiver is unresponsive and unable to meet the babies needs due to her own mental health, in June's case severe depression, sadly that is neglect.  Neglect is neglect it does not distinguish between intentional and unintentional neglect.  This is the effect neglect has on the developing brain:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/children_shealth/9637682/Whats-the-difference-between-these-two-brains.html

The article identifies many of SC's symptoms:

- less intelligent
- less able to empathise with others
- more likely to become addicted to drugs :-*
- and involved in violent crime
- more likely to be unemployed
- to be dependent on welfare
- lack of educational attainment
- develop mental and serious health problems

Hi NN  :-*

Yes given all the upheaval in SC's life during the first 2/3 yrs it does beg the question re the "return and serve"  :-\ :-\ :-\

http://developingchild.harvard.edu/index.php/download_file/-/view/1340/

SHEILA CAFFELL

Changes in caregivers

Birth mother - Christine Jay
Various caregivers at nursery - Box, Wilts
Adoptive mother - June Bamber
A.n.other - whilst June in psychiatric hospital for severe depression caused by her decision to adopt SC
Adoptive mother - June Bamber

Potential for neglect

Highly likely in the lead up to hospitalisation for the above.  Inadequate care in responding to SC's needs.

JEREMY BAMBER

Changes in caregivers

Birth mother - Juliet Wheeler
Adoptive mother - June Bamber

Potential for neglect

Unlikely.  Adequate care in responding to JB's needs




« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 11:41:PM by Naughty Nun »

Offline killingeve

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2013, 09:42:AM »
Hi NN  :-*

Yes given all the upheaval in SC's life during the first 2/3 yrs it does beg the question re the "return and serve"  :-\ :-\ :-\

http://developingchild.harvard.edu/index.php/download_file/-/view/1340/

SHEILA CAFFELL

Changes in caregivers

Birth mother - Christine Jay
Various caregivers at nursery - Box, Wilts
Adoptive mother - June Bamber
A.n.other - whilst June in psychiatric hospital for severe depression caused by her decision to adopt SC
Adoptive mother - June Bamber

Potential for neglect

Highly likely in the lead up to hospitalisation for the above.  Inadequate care in responding to SC's needs.

JEREMY BAMBER

Changes in caregivers

Birth mother - Juliet Wheeler
Adoptive mother - June Bamber

Potential for neglect

Unlikely.  Adequate care in responding to JB's needs

Morning NN

Hope you are well  :). I can see your posts on the effects of neglect on the brain in changing the architecture are going down like er.....lead balloon  :-\ :-\ :-\

What about this

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/09/neuroscience-of-neglect/

Just under the bar chart in blue writing it states:

"Early-life isolation sets off a flood of hormones that permanently warp their responses to stress, leaving them anxious and prone to violent swings in mood".

Isn't this how CC and Freddie described SC?  Highly strung, prone to violent outbursts, and the slightest provocation would set her off.  I will find their exact wording/description from their wit stats.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2013, 09:46:AM »
Morning NN

Hope you are well  :). I can see your posts on the effects of neglect on the brain in changing the architecture are going down like er.....lead balloon  :-\ :-\ :-\

What about this

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/09/neuroscience-of-neglect/

Just under the bar chart in blue writing it states:

"Early-life isolation sets off a flood of hormones that permanently warp their responses to stress, leaving them anxious and prone to violent swings in mood".

Isn't this how CC and Freddie described SC?  Highly strung, prone to violent outbursts, and the slightest provocation would set her off.  I will find their exact wording/description from their wit stats.

Awwww NN ur Top Totty  :-*.  This is exciting stuff and sounds cutting edge  ;). Catch ya latter x

Offline killingeve

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2013, 10:15:AM »
NN why not ask LiR to move these posts to a new thread entitled "Neglect - effect on developing brain"?

Offline killingeve

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2013, 10:32:AM »
Will do.  I suspect it will be "Just the two of us"  :) but hey ho twos company, threes a crowd  :)

Do WE want to keep going over the same stuff re SoC which is notoriously difficult to draw any conclusions from given the way the SoC was treated in the initial stages of the investigation ie not a SoC but 4 murders/1 suicide.  Most fair minded people would agree at the very least JB's trial was totally unfair but that is history and we have to work with now.  Now is going round in circles with stuff that has been pored over for nearly 3 decades or considering the significant scientific advances in the understanding of attachment and neglect on the developing brains of babies and young children.  This sets JB and SC apart and with professional help might help us to understand what was going on in SC's mind.  If Michael Tucker QC and Michael Duck QC thought there was sufficient mileage in raising the bible at appeal ie trying to interpret the open pages to understand SC's mind surely this is even more important?  Along with adoption psychology and reunions?

Caroline R

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2013, 04:32:PM »
There you go NN X

Offline killingeve

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2013, 09:22:PM »
There you go NN X

Thank you Lady in Red.  You are simply the best mod in the whole wide world  :)

Offline killingeve

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2013, 07:40:AM »
Morning NN

Hope you are well  :). I can see your posts on the effects of neglect on the brain in changing the architecture are going down like er.....lead balloon  :-\ :-\ :-\

What about this

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/09/neuroscience-of-neglect/

Just under the bar chart in blue writing it states:

"Early-life isolation sets off a flood of hormones that permanently warp their responses to stress, leaving them anxious and prone to violent swings in mood".

Isn't this how CC and Freddie described SC?  Highly strung, prone to violent outbursts, and the slightest provocation would set her off.  I will find their exact wording/description from their wit stats.

Morning NN

Yes I re-read the wit stats of Dr F, CC and FE and there's much that points to the symptoms of attachment disorder and early childhood neglect eg lack of confidence, depression, highly strung, violent, quick temper, worry over small problems, jumpy, uptight and panicky etc.  However I don't want to throw a spanner in the works but the jury were aware SC was mentally ill and 10 decided JB pulled the trigger 25 times not SC so how does the fact that SC may have been misdiagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic and/or suffered potentially from other conditions ie attachment disorder and neglect have any bearing on jurors decision?

Offline killingeve

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2013, 07:58:AM »
Morning NN

Yes I re-read the wit stats of Dr F, CC and FE and there's much that points to the symptoms of attachment disorder and early childhood neglect  :-*eg lack of confidence, depression, highly strung, violent, quick temper, worry over small problems, jumpy, uptight and panicky etc.  However I don't want to throw a spanner in the works but the jury were aware SC was mentally ill and 10 decided JB pulled the trigger 25 times not SC so how does the fact that SC may have been misdiagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic and/or suffered potentially from other conditions ie attachment disorder and neglect have any bearing on jurors decision?

Morning NN

Hey your train of thought sounds so much like mine  ;D. Great minds think alike  ;). Think that's why I love you sooooooooooo much  :-*

Yeah initially I thought the same but Dr F was the main line of defence and yet nowhere has he referred to an attachment disorder and early childhood neglect.  Symptoms of these conditions presented before SC was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic in her 20's eg behavioural and academic problems at school, unplanned pregnancies, inability to find permanent employment etc.  Had the jury been aware of this it may have changed their decision  ;). I think it's all beyond us NN need a suitably qualified person(s) to give their opinion on the matter  :).  Shall we put it to specialists in the area and see if the are able to help.  I'm sure they would find it a very interesting case indeed  ;)

Offline lookout

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2013, 08:01:AM »
Good morning,NN,,would we know whether Sheila had any" connections" with grannie Speakman.?
I have my own reasons for asking this question.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2013, 08:06:AM »
Morning NN

Hey your train of thought sounds so much like mine  ;D. Great minds think alike  ;). Think that's why I love you sooooooooooo much  :-*

Yeah initially I thought the same but Dr F was the main line of defence and yet nowhere has he referred to an attachment disorder and early childhood neglect.  Symptoms of these conditions presented before SC was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic in her 20's eg behavioural and academic problems at school, unplanned pregnancies, inability to find permanent employment etc.  Had the jury been aware of this it may have changed their decision  ;). I think it's all beyond us NN need a suitably qualified person(s) to give their opinion on the matter  :).  Shall we put it to specialists in the area and see if the are able to help.  I'm sure they would find it a very interesting case indeed  ;)

Yes I agree NN we need specialists' opinion.  Sounds like a plan in the making.  As you said I'm sure they will find it a very interesting case indeed  ;). Let's go.  Gotta go for a run now but I'll catch you later and we'll outline a plan  :)

Offline killingeve

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2013, 08:11:AM »
Good morning,NN,,would we know whether Sheila had any" connections" with grannie Speakman.?
I have my own reasons for asking this question.

Morning Lookout

According to CC's book SC felt closer to PB and GS.  CC suggests this was because they would apply boundaries for SC and June didn't  :-\. However even if these relationships were positive they are not a substitute for a poor relationship with her primary caregiver ie June.

Offline lookout

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2013, 09:52:AM »
Morning Lookout

According to CC's book SC felt closer to PB and GS.  CC suggests this was because they would apply boundaries for SC and June didn't  :-\. However even if these relationships were positive they are not a substitute for a poor relationship with her primary caregiver ie June.





It can be a difficult road,,but with patience,can be achieved. I speak from experience as a grandmother,and now a great grandmother.
As a family,,we initially all lived together in a large Victorian villa. Daughter had her own business,I had my work,g/children went to school,,not private,but good schools.
G/daughter displayed " behavioural problems " at the age of 10,,disobedient,wilful and difficult,,so I saw trying times ahead. My daughter was disappointed with her own daughters' behaviour,and was " put off " by it. In other words,,the only time the g/daughter dished out cuddles and hugs was when she wanted something. In the 80's when others were struggling,my g/children pretty well had everything they asked for come birthdays and Christmas.
However,teen-time proved disasterous for my g/daughter,and she got into the wrong company at school,and decided to experiment with alcohol,,so my thoughts were that she'll soon learn when she over does it,,,but she didn't. School was missed,,then when she went back to school,she'd go into the front of it,and go out through another exit.
We didn't know she was bunking until we received a letter from the school. Anyway,,her mother started to drive her to school,,and wait,and this went on,,but the drinking continued,lies about going to her friends' for tea. This was at 13 years of age. We were at a loss what to do,,because she was violent/frustrated,,she was in a dark place and there was nothing we could do,until I decided that a short,sharp shock was needed,so I contacted the social services.
They proved to be no help whatsoever and didn't appear to know what the best solution would be,bunking school,drinking,destructive self-harming,shouting and swearing,,she was like a wild animal.Her brother,who was 3 years younger,was petrified of her.
Do you know what,,I swear that if she'd had a gun,,she'd have used it on her mother and myself. Yet we gave her love ,everything she wanted ( probably too much and could have added to the failure to gain respect from her )
Then things changed ( not for the better ) in the year she turned 14. As my own daughter gave me a Mothers Day card/present,,she was in floods of tears which were near hysteria. Her news wasn't good. Her husband had decided to leave because he couldn't hack the situation ( very considerate of him,I must say ) and g/daughter was pregnant ( happy mothers day ) Because g/daughter wouldn't say anything about her situation,,and because I worked at the hospital at the time,I arranged for her to have it aborted. This,I thought would be a lesson to her. For all we know,she could have been blind drunk at the time and completely oblivious as to who the father was,,but I didn't force the issue in that area,,so at 7 weeks,,the procedure was carried out.
The girl never ever spoke about it,and we didn't broach the subject again. I thought things might now settle,,but the drinking and violent outbursts continued,plus her refusal to attend school.
One thing I couldn't do,,but felt like,,was to wash my hands of her. I tried and tried,because her mother was still trying to come to terms with her husband leaving,which left me as the sole carer for two children as well as the stresses of work,and a sick husband.
These outbursts happened without alcohol and one night she put her fist through a glass panel in the bathroom door,,which meant a spell in A&E. I realised that she was wanting to bring something to our attention,,but what it was,,other than her mind was sick,,we don't know.
She just didn't want to get close to anyone,try as we might. Her father leaving, exacerbated her problem as well or rather,I felt that it was giving her more of an excuse to kick off,,so when she did,I devised a new tactic. Instead of love,and trying to understand her moods,,if she screamed and swore at her mother,,I'd slap her hard. I'd had enough.Anyway,,she got the shock of her life and I told her that she wasn't the only one who could display violence,,that I wasn't going to put up with her ways any longer.It shook her to the core. I wasn't going to put up with my lovely home being wrecked by her.Her bedroom always looked as though it had been vandalised,and wherever she was in the house,she left a trail of destruction.
From then on,,the change was dramatic. The only downturn was that she'd flatly refused to attend school for her last year.I don't know how we got away with that,but we did.Nobody bothered us.
That same girl/woman,will be 30 next week,,she visits often and phones me every week,though sad to say,she hasn't got the same respect for her mother as she has for me. If there are any problems,g/daughter will contact me and not her mother. She knows that she can call,or see me if anything untoward arises. So my motto was to be fair,but firm.

I don't know whether g/daughter got hold of drugs.I didn't find any anywhere.

I remember one dreadful night when she was shouting and screaming,so I phoned for the police,,and a very tall, stern male came along and shouted at her like I'd never heard before,and she told him to get out,then began swearing at him,so he enticed her outside onto the public pathway while she was still swearing at him,and he nabbed her and whisked her off to a cell for the night.Needless to say,that didn't cure her,,only the hard slap that I dished out brought her down to earth.

So,as you can understand,,I won't ever be lectured on problems of the mind,,and even detachment disorder problems aren't just peculiar to those who are/have been adopted.
Junes' problems were bad enough,,but I think mine were a lot worse,with blood relatives,even.

Offline Jane

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2013, 10:07:AM »




It can be a difficult road,,but with patience,can be achieved. I speak from experience as a grandmother,and now a great grandmother.
As a family,,we initially all lived together in a large Victorian villa. Daughter had her own business,I had my work,g/children went to school,,not private,but good schools.
G/daughter displayed " behavioural problems " at the age of 10,,disobedient,wilful and difficult,,so I saw trying times ahead. My daughter was disappointed with her own daughters' behaviour,and was " put off " by it. In other words,,the only time the g/daughter dished out cuddles and hugs was when she wanted something. In the 80's when others were struggling,my g/children pretty well had everything they asked for come birthdays and Christmas.
However,teen-time proved disasterous for my g/daughter,and she got into the wrong company at school,and decided to experiment with alcohol,,so my thoughts were that she'll soon learn when she over does it,,,but she didn't. School was missed,,then when she went back to school,she'd go into the front of it,and go out through another exit.
We didn't know she was bunking until we received a letter from the school. Anyway,,her mother started to drive her to school,,and wait,and this went on,,but the drinking continued,lies about going to her friends' for tea. This was at 13 years of age. We were at a loss what to do,,because she was violent/frustrated,,she was in a dark place and there was nothing we could do,until I decided that a short,sharp shock was needed,so I contacted the social services.
They proved to be no help whatsoever and didn't appear to know what the best solution would be,bunking school,drinking,destructive self-harming,shouting and swearing,,she was like a wild animal.Her brother,who was 3 years younger,was petrified of her.
Do you know what,,I swear that if she'd had a gun,,she'd have used it on her mother and myself. Yet we gave her love ,everything she wanted ( probably too much and could have added to the failure to gain respect from her )
Then things changed ( not for the better ) in the year she turned 14. As my own daughter gave me a Mothers Day card/present,,she was in floods of tears which were near hysteria. Her news wasn't good. Her husband had decided to leave because he couldn't hack the situation ( very considerate of him,I must say ) and g/daughter was pregnant ( happy mothers day ) Because g/daughter wouldn't say anything about her situation,,and because I worked at the hospital at the time,I arranged for her to have it aborted. This,I thought would be a lesson to her. For all we know,she could have been blind drunk at the time and completely oblivious as to who the father was,,but I didn't force the issue in that area,,so at 7 weeks,,the procedure was carried out.
The girl never ever spoke about it,and we didn't broach the subject again. I thought things might now settle,,but the drinking and violent outbursts continued,plus her refusal to attend school.
One thing I couldn't do,,but felt like,,was to wash my hands of her. I tried and tried,because her mother was still trying to come to terms with her husband leaving,which left me as the sole carer for two children as well as the stresses of work,and a sick husband.
These outbursts happened without alcohol and one night she put her fist through a glass panel in the bathroom door,,which meant a spell in A&E. I realised that she was wanting to bring something to our attention,,but what it was,,other than her mind was sick,,we don't know.
She just didn't want to get close to anyone,try as we might. Her father leaving, exacerbated her problem as well or rather,I felt that it was giving her more of an excuse to kick off,,so when she did,I devised a new tactic. Instead of love,and trying to understand her moods,,if she screamed and swore at her mother,,I'd slap her hard. I'd had enough.Anyway,,she got the shock of her life and I told her that she wasn't the only one who could display violence,,that I wasn't going to put up with her ways any longer.It shook her to the core. I wasn't going to put up with my lovely home being wrecked by her.Her bedroom always looked as though it had been vandalised,and wherever she was in the house,she left a trail of destruction.
From then on,,the change was dramatic. The only downturn was that she'd flatly refused to attend school for her last year.I don't know how we got away with that,but we did.Nobody bothered us.
That same girl/woman,will be 30 next week,,she visits often and phones me every week,though sad to say,she hasn't got the same respect for her mother as she has for me. If there are any problems,g/daughter will contact me and not her mother. She knows that she can call,or see me if anything untoward arises. So my motto was to be fair,but firm.

I don't know whether g/daughter got hold of drugs.I didn't find any anywhere.

I remember one dreadful night when she was shouting and screaming,so I phoned for the police,,and a very tall, stern male came along and shouted at her like I'd never heard before,and she told him to get out,then began swearing at him,so he enticed her outside onto the public pathway while she was still swearing at him,and he nabbed her and whisked her off to a cell for the night.Needless to say,that didn't cure her,,only the hard slap that I dished out brought her down to earth.

So,as you can understand,,I won't ever be lectured on problems of the mind,,and even detachment disorder problems aren't just peculiar to those who are/have been adopted.
Junes' problems were bad enough,,but I think mine were a lot worse,with blood relatives,even.



Lookout, in my mind I've always likened you to "Big Bea" indomitable doctor in Tenko. Your post tells me I haven't been TOO far off the mark. You're one helluva gutsy, feisty lady and my respect for you knows no bounds. I just hope that you've had someone you could turn to for yourself, because I feel sure you will at times, have needed a shoulder. Love and respect, lookout. xxxxxxxxx