Truth of the night before

[HMEssex]

Yes and I reject this theory because there's no evidence that Sheila ever bonded with June in the first place..

Surely, then, that IS an attachment disorder!!

[Jane]

Yes and I reject this theory because there's no evidence that Sheila ever bonded with June in the first place..

ER, Steve, THIS is exactly what NaNu has been telling you. I thiunk you may have misunderstood.

[Caroline R]

I think there were concerns with both Sheila and Jeremy,as Nevill was Sheila's parent of choice with the telephone calls whereas Jeremy tended to stick with June,from the Jubilee photograph in which we see a Jeremy having returned from Gresham's without qualifications and looking rather insecure. Maybe as Jeremy started to have a social life I think they drifted apart again:this would tie in with the Roger Wilkes book where it's stated problems arose in their relationship around 1978. With Sheila's illness followed by June's it's evident to me that Jeremy became unsettled again,not wishing to pursue an academic education to A Level but deep down not having any bonds with farm work,at least not from the bottom up which was Nevill's viewpoint on how his son's career should progress. We therefore have a tumbleweed Jeremy at this stage of his life,without the regular routine and discipline of Gresham's,which Jeremy came to regard as a complete waste of time and never forgave his parents for sending him to.

If we're ever talking about attachment disorders look no futher than Jeremy having been sent away at eight years old to this institution which was so alien to him,at a moment when he might just have begun to bond with his parents.

That wouldn't be an attachment disorder then would it?

[maggie]

That wouldn't be an attachment disorder then would it?

No and if he hadn't bonded by 8 years old well, it was a little late I would have thought.

I am sure it can be very traumatic for such young children to be sent away to school and it may cause other problems, however nothing to do with attachment disorder which is about failing to form normal attachments to primary care givers in early childhood. 

[Steve_uk]

Given that June Bamber could hardly be described as a primary caregiver in the first place I fail to see how this attachment disorder manifests itself,or how Jeremy's relationship with June could possibly be described as different from the one Sheila experienced. I note that Boris and Zeanah's definition includes a situation where "a young child has no preferred adult caregiver". Are members sure that this is peculiar to Sheila and that this alone unlocks the secret to what happened at White House Farm over twenty years later?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_disorder

[Caroline R]

Given that June Bamber could hardly be described as a primary caregiver in the first place I fail to see how this attachment disorder manifests itself,or how Jeremy's relationship with June could possibly be described as different from the one Sheila experienced. I note that Boris and Zeanah's definition includes a situation where "a young child has no preferred adult caregiver". Are members sure that this is peculiar to Sheila and that this alone unlocks the secret to what happened at White House Farm over twenty years later?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_disorder

No, but it could be a 'factor'

[Jane]

Given that June Bamber could hardly be described as a primary caregiver in the first place I fail to see how this attachment disorder manifests itself,or how Jeremy's relationship with June could possibly be described as different from the one Sheila experienced. I note that Boris and Zeanah's definition includes a situation where "a young child has no preferred adult caregiver". Are members sure that this is peculiar to Sheila and that this alone unlocks the secret to what happened at White House Farm over twenty years later?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_disorder

Steve, I'm beginning to take on board how frustrating it may be for you if you have to explain something numerous times to the same pupil

Please understand that each child adopted or biological, is unique and comes with its' own set of needs. So if we look at 3 siblings, if they respond differently to the same stimulii, inevitably they must be treated accordingly, thus will their memories of childhood be different. So if we go back to Sheila and Jeremy, two children with vastly different genetics, one can see clearly, that other than both needing to feel loved and secure, the componants necessary for them to attain this were probably very different.

I dispute entirely Boris and Zeanah's definition. So too would neo natal units and most other psychologists who all recognize that a baby know its' own mother by her voice, touch, smell and feel within a few weeks of birth, and will respond very differently to her than to others. Imagine Sheila, JUST getting used to one "mother" and suddenly she's replaced by a stranger, not just once but several times. It's almost possible to believe that she gave up on ever having a caregiver with whom she could fully bond. 

[Caroline R]

Surely, then, that IS an attachment disorder!!

Ha, ha!! That's what I was thinking 

[HMEssex]

Given that June Bamber could hardly be described as a primary caregiver in the first place I fail to see how this attachment disorder manifests itself,or how Jeremy's relationship with June could possibly be described as different from the one Sheila experienced. I note that Boris and Zeanah's definition includes a situation where "a young child has no preferred adult caregiver". Are members sure that this is peculiar to Sheila and that this alone unlocks the secret to what happened at White House Farm over twenty years later?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_disorder

You agree that June was not a primary caregiver.

Jeremy's adoption would be different as June already had experience regarding adoption her Sheila. (Without the need to be hospitalised in JB's case.)

JB and SC were also of different 'stock', so nature/nuture would come into place.

Preferred carer is not the same as constant.

Additionally, Sheila developed schizophrenia, whereas Jeremy did not.

[Steve_uk]

Steve, I'm beginning to take on board how frustrating it may be for you if you have to explain something numerous times to the same pupil

Please understand that each child adopted or biological, is unique and comes with its' own set of needs. So if we look at 3 siblings, if they respond differently to the same stimulii, inevitably they must be treated accordingly, thus will their memories of childhood be different. So if we go back to Sheila and Jeremy, two children with vastly different genetics, one can see clearly, that other than both needing to feel loved and secure, the componants necessary for them to attain this were probably very different.

I dispute entirely Boris and Zeanah's definition. So too would neo natal units and most other psychologists who all recognize that a baby know its' own mother by her voice, touch, smell and feel within a few weeks of birth, and will respond very differently to her than to others. Imagine Sheila, JUST getting used to one "mother" and suddenly she's replaced by a stranger, not just once but several times. It's almost possible to believe that she gave up on ever having a caregiver with whom she could fully bond.

This is all very well,but you fail to explain the substance of how this is different from Sheila and Jeremy. You reject two psychologists view as is your right,but I don't see any difference between Sheila feeling rejected at birth if this was the case and Jeremy's predicament. In some ways it's worse for boys as they feel they have to prove themselves in a more competitive environment,and Jeremy on one occasion who let the mask slip by confiding into a fellow-pupil that he was adopted became labelled as "The Bastard",thus retreating into his own world where he vowed nothing would harm him again.

[Steve_uk]

You agree that June was not a primary caregiver.

Jeremy's adoption would be different as June already had experience regarding adoption her Sheila. (Without the need to be hospitalised in JB's case.)

JB and SC were also of different 'stock', so nature/nuture would come into place.

Preferred carer is not the same as constant.

Additionally, Sheila developed schizophrenia, whereas Jeremy did not.

No I don't accept this as June dropped Jeremy on the head for one thing. She was in a much more favourable position than most mothers who don't have half the help at hand June had,and I'm afraid her illness led her to alienate both adoptees. She realized all too late the damage that had occurred,albeit unwittingly,which is one of the ironies of this case when she was beginning to have a better relationship with Sheila towards the end(which may have engendered Jeremy's remark "I'm not sharing any of my money with my sister"),though not with Jeremy who was frightened of any rapprochement or relationship for that matter which might eat into his inheritance.

[Alias]

The first child in a family can be described as a guinea pig. The parents are rookies and will make mistakes, there is no way around that. Normally things are easier with the second one. Same with adoptive parents, no doubt.

[maggie]

The first child in a family can be described as a guinea pig. The parents are rookies and will make mistakes, there is no way around that. Normally things are easier with the second one. Same with adoptive parents, no doubt.

Exactly the same Alias, yeah parents practice on the first one, that's true. 

[Jane]

This is all very well,but you fail to explain the substance of how this is different from Sheila and Jeremy. You reject two psychologists view as is your right,but I don't see any difference between Sheila feeling rejected at birth if this was the case and Jeremy's predicament. In some ways it's worse for boys as they feel they have to prove themselves in a more competitive environment,and Jeremy on one occasion who let the mask slip by confiding into a fellow-pupil that he was adopted became labelled as "The Bastard",thus retreating into his own world where he vowed nothing would harm him again.

Steve, their experiences were VERY different. Sheila was June's first attempt at mothering. How very unfortunate for her that Sheila had already been passed from piller to post as far as carers were concerned, then, within a short time, June experiences her first breakdown and Sheila is passed to yet other carers. She may not even have been capable of talking but she was absorbing all these discomforting experiences she couldn't understand. Jeremy was mothered by a June who already had the experience of being a mother, AND he was much younger than was Sheila when she was first given into June's care.

You ask what was the difference in their upbringing. Apart from the obvious boy/girl, there was their difference in ages at adoption, there was the fact that an older Sheila was adopted first by a less experienced June and was then separated from her and Jeremy was adopted by a more experienced June who is his constant caregiver. Add to this their different genetics making different their attitudes to their upbringing and it becomes very clear how different their childhood experiences would have been.

[Jane]

Exactly the same Alias, yeah parents practice on the first one, that's true. 

Exactly Maggie. I don't know any family where the second child doesn't have it easier than the first.......or so I'm frequently told by the first child :D :D :D