Whose Bloodied right hand palm print was left on pages of bible?

[Alias]

It doesn't have to be rubbish. It ties in with what we know of Sheila's personality;a rather infantile easily-led girl who appeared vacant and not with it to the Tiptree shopkeeper and who was tired that same night and didn't say goodnight on the telephone to Auntie Pam as she used to. It tallies with what Jeremy told Julie that Matthew told her to lie down,but before she could Jeremy shot her once and for his intentions failed to kill her outright. It was the only part of the plan he couldn't rehearse,and in desperation at seeing Sheila drop the bloodied bible as she involuntarily moved a hand to her neck he shot her again quickly,then pulled the legs of the dead corpse to make it look as if she had lain down and shot herself,which she could not have done with the silencer which left its mark and spoke from beyond the grave.

I don´t accept that anybody is "easily led" to their own death.

[Caroline R]

Did I say anything about whether or not you or anyone else had reached a conclusion?

Much like NN you have a tendency to make assumptions about what I think. I haven't dismissed it, I just haven't accepted it for reasons I've already explained, there is a difference. It is currently in the wait and see box.

As it stands at the moment, because of the evidence of Hammersley and Vanezis, the least likely person to whom the palm print (if that's what it is) belongs is Sheila. Of the other 3 possibilities I actually favour June, but I'm getting ready to wholeheartedly congratulate you if it turns out to be JBs.

How come none of you have yet suggested that she made the palm print before she ritually washed herself?

I don't believe she did ritually wash herself. Isn't there a question over whether Hammersley was even there that morning? As for Vanezis, we don't know if her hands were swabbed before he saw them.

By the way, glad you haven't dismissed it - yet 

[Jane]

Think we mainly accept she couldn't be rational and psychotic at the same time Steve, nothing has changed there. 
No one has ever said she killed in cold blood. Deeply psychotic Sheila could kill as well as anyone else could.  It has nothing to do with her character and everything to do with her illness.

However Alias someone who appears to be sane is often psychotic so planning can still be done in a psychotic state.  Suicide is often a planned act but the person planning it can be in a state of psychosis if you see what I mean. 

april:
I disagree with that somewhat. Actually there are many examples of mentally ill people planning and plotting to kill - mostly (in fact, almost always) their own relatives. The planning is rational, but the reasons for killing are psychotic.
People mostly assume that incidents like this happen in a rage or a frenzy, but it can very well be quite the opposite, it is all planned.

Alias/Maggie, I see your reasoning. I'm happy to go with that because whilst the outcome appeared frenzied I always thought action had been taken by someone who was "elsewhere."

[maggie]

Alias/Maggie, I see your reasoning. I'm happy to go with that because whilst the outcome appeared frenzied I always thought action had been taken by someone who was "elsewhere."

Hi April I tend to go with frenzied but just saying you can appear sane but be psychotic.

[Bridget]

I don't believe she did ritually wash herself. Isn't there a question over whether Hammersley was even there that morning? As for Vanezis, we don't know if her hands were swabbed before he saw them.

By the way, glad you haven't dismissed it - yet 

He made statements stating that he was there and hasn't been done for perjury yet so I'm guessing that he was. There was a discussion about this a little while ago, I think NGB commented on it so he may remember where it was.

[maggie]

I don't believe she did ritually wash herself. Isn't there a question over whether Hammersley was even there that morning? As for Vanezis, we don't know if her hands were swabbed before he saw them.

By the way, glad you haven't dismissed it - yet 

Personally I haven't been too convinced by the ritual cleansing tho I  accept it does happen.  I certainly do question whether her hands were washed at some point before swabbing??

[Caroline R]

He made statements stating that he was there and hasn't been done for perjury yet so I'm guessing that he was. There was a discussion about this a little while ago, I think NGB commented on it so he may remember where it was.

Not many police officers get done for perjury  . You have such faith in the system Bridget which is quite commendable (no, I'm not being sarcastic). I did hear that he wasn't there, but I don't think it was here, it was before I joined but I don't remember where from - it may have been in a book but I will try and remember. However, I will ask NGB.

[Bridget]

Not many police officers get done for perjury  . You have such faith in the system Bridget which is quite commendable (no, I'm not being sarcastic). I did hear that he wasn't there, but I don't think it was here, it was before I joined but I don't remember where from - it may have been in a book but I will try and remember. However, I will ask NGB.

It was something to do with fiddling overtime or time sheets if that jogs his memory. It's one thing to claim a few extra hours, quite another to make a statement in a high profile murder case as to where you were and what you did if you weren't even there.

[Bridget]

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4088.msg168817.html#msg168817

[Caroline R]

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4088.msg168817.html#msg168817

Thanks Bridget I'm sure NGB will clarify but from what he said it sounds as though he wasn't there.

[Bridget]

Thanks Bridget I'm sure NGB will clarify but from what he said it sounds as though he wasn't there.

It sounds to me like he was accused of fiddling time sheets which may have included time that he was supposedly there. Unless I see the outcome of the inquiry or some other action taken against him I'm not prepared to accept that the finding was that he wasnt there at all and he therefore falsified his statements, not least because anything NGB has the defence has and you know as well as I do they'd be shouting it from the rooftops.

[Caroline R]

It sounds to me like he was accused of fiddling time sheets which may have included time that he was supposedly there. Unless I see the outcome of the inquiry or some other action taken against him I'm not prepared to accept that the finding was that he wasnt there at all and he therefore falsified his statements, not least because anything NGB has the defence has and you know as well as I do they'd be shouting it from the rooftops.

That's up to you.

[Bridget]

That's up to you.

Yep, and I believe you have the same doubts, you're far from stupid or gullible.

[Caroline R]

Yep, and I believe you have the same doubts, you're far from stupid or gullible.

Of course I do and yes, I would like to see 'proof'. However, not so long ago you were convinced that there was a panic button pre murders and told me I should simply take someone's word for it. I never do that - for obvious reasons!!

[Bridget]

Of course I do and yes, I would like to see 'proof'. However, not so long ago you were convinced that there was a panic button pre murders and told me I should simply take someone's word for it. I never do that - for obvious reasons!!

Yes, based on what I believed Vic had been told by people who would know, but that's hardly the same thing, is it.