Whose Bloodied right hand palm print was left on pages of bible?

[killingeve]

Well there's a reason for that Ms N, it's a tactic I see used here all the time to try to make things appear to be something which they are not (or are not necessarily). I prefer to see as much of the picture as possible before coming to a conclusion.

Miss Bridget

Oh I see.  I new you would have a perfectly plausible explanation 

You're Miss Bridget as I find you very teacherish.   

[maggie]

I feel certain that not many of us can, Maggie :D however, I have asked myself the same questions as you.  Did she kill her children to prevent them from, in her disordered mind, being taken from her. Did she kill them because yet again, and possibly because her meds were out of balance, she was having thoughts about them attacking and raping her because they are the devil's children OR was she even aware that they were her children. She clearly can't be capable of psychotic and rational behaviours at the same time.

I tend to believe she was totally lost April. Therefore she may have killed and then sat and read June's bible which would have been to hand in the main bedroom maybe on the bed where June had left it if Neville wasn't sleeping in there.  She may have sat on the bed and read it and then shot herself on the bed twice sitting up the first time and failing and then maybe falling or lying back on the bed and shooting herself again.  The angle of the first shot more likely to point to a sitting shot and she would have had to lie down for the second shot I would think. imo ??

[Caroline R]

Well there's a reason for that Ms N, it's a tactic I see used here all the time to try to make things appear to be something which they are not (or are not necessarily). I prefer to see as much of the picture as possible before coming to a conclusion.

No one has come to any conclusion we are simply following an idea, one which if you seem to be dismissing far too easily. I'd rather be wrong than allow an innocent man to stay incarcerated. I've been wrong many times and it not matter, it would be nice to be right and it make a difference!! (I just thought of that - it's almost profound!!  )

[Alias]

Some stray thoughts. Jeremy wouldn´t have been clever or "deep" enough to think about arranging Sheila´s body with the bible opened at exactly that page. He just isn´t that smart.
Lugg once pointed out that the only room free of blood staining was Sheila´s room (of course some other rooms in that big house, but they are not relevant. Sheila´s bedroom was free of any kind of struggle.
Thank God I haven´t seen pictures of the twins in their beds, but Sheila´s appearance in death is vastly different from June and Neville. J and N look messy and give a distraught, desperate vibe, whereas Sheila looks clean, peaceful and you almost get a vibe of serenity.

[Jane]

Some stray thoughts. Jeremy wouldn´t have been clever or "deep" enough to think about arranging Sheila´s body with the bible opened at exactly that page. He just isn´t that smart.
Lugg once pointed out that the only room free of blood staining was Sheila´s room (of course some other rooms in that big house, but they are not relevant. Sheila´s bedroom was free of any kind of struggle.
Thank God I haven´t seen pictures of the twins in their beds, but Sheila´s appearance in death is vastly different from June and Neville. J and N look messy and give a distraught, desperate vibe, whereas Sheila looks clean, peaceful and you almost get a vibe of serenity.

Which presumably she wouldn't have done had she, too, been shot.

[maggie]

Some stray thoughts. Jeremy wouldn´t have been clever or "deep" enough to think about arranging Sheila´s body with the bible opened at exactly that page. He just isn´t that smart.
Lugg once pointed out that the only room free of blood staining was Sheila´s room (of course some other rooms in that big house, but they are not relevant. Sheila´s bedroom was free of any kind of struggle.
Thank God I haven´t seen pictures of the twins in their beds, but Sheila´s appearance in death is vastly different from June and Neville. J and N look messy and give a distraught, desperate vibe, whereas Sheila looks clean, peaceful and you almost get a vibe of serenity.

I agree Alias, the photos of June and Neville are dreadful and heartrending.  They speak of fear and struggle but as you say Sheila looks unphased and calm.  Cannot believe there was any struggle there and neither do I believe she just let JB shoot her, that is rubbish imo.

[Caroline R]

The blood on Sheila's wrist looks as though it is trailing down from her palm, If you were bleeding heavily from a wound in your neck and you put your hand to your throat (which would be a natural reaction), you would get those blood trails running down your arm - but NOT without getting blood on the palm of your hand!!

[Alias]

The blood on Sheila's wrist looks as though it is trailing down from her palm, If you were bleeding heavily from a wound in your neck and you put your hand to your throat (which would be a natural reaction), you would get those blood trails running down your arm - but NOT without getting blood on the palm of our hand!!

Exactly spot on - as I see it anyway.

[Steve_uk]

I feel certain that not many of us can, Maggie :D however, I have asked myself the same questions as you.  Did she kill her children to prevent them from, in her disordered mind, being taken from her. Did she kill them because yet again, and possibly because her meds were out of balance, she was having thoughts about them attacking and raping her because they are the devil's children OR was she even aware that they were her children. She clearly can't be capable of psychotic and rational behaviours at the same time.

I'm pleased the Defence has finally acknowledged this.

[Bridget]

No one has come to any conclusion we are simply following an idea, one which if you seem to be dismissing far too easily. I'd rather be wrong than allow an innocent man to stay incarcerated. I've been wrong many times and it not matter, it would be nice to be right and it make a difference!! (I just thought of that - it's almost profound!!  )

Did I say anything about whether or not you or anyone else had reached a conclusion?

Much like NN you have a tendency to make assumptions about what I think. I haven't dismissed it, I just haven't accepted it for reasons I've already explained, there is a difference. It is currently in the wait and see box.

As it stands at the moment, because of the evidence of Hammersley and Vanezis, the least likely person to whom the palm print (if that's what it is) belongs is Sheila. Of the other 3 possibilities I actually favour June, but I'm getting ready to wholeheartedly congratulate you if it turns out to be JBs.

How come none of you have yet suggested that she made the palm print before she ritually washed herself?

[Alias]

april:

She clearly can't be capable of psychotic and rational behaviours at the same time.

I disagree with that somewhat. Actually there are many examples of mentally ill people planning and plotting to kill - mostly (in fact, almost always) their own relatives. The planning is rational, but the reasons for killing are psychotic.
People mostly assume that incidents like this happen in a rage or a frenzy, but it can very well be quite the opposite, it is all planned.

[maggie]

I'm pleased the Defence has finally acknowledged this.

Think we mainly accept she couldn't be rational and psychotic at the same time Steve, nothing has changed there. 
No one has ever said she killed in cold blood. Deeply psychotic Sheila could kill as well as anyone else could.  It has nothing to do with her character and everything to do with her illness.

However Alias someone who appears to be sane is often psychotic so planning can still be done in a psychotic state.  Suicide is often a planned act but the person planning it can be in a state of psychosis if you see what I mean. 

[Steve_uk]

I agree Alias, the photos of June and Neville are dreadful and heartrending.  They speak of fear and struggle but as you say Sheila looks unphased and calm.  Cannot believe there was any struggle there and neither do I believe she just let JB shoot her, that is rubbish imo.

It doesn't have to be rubbish. It ties in with what we know of Sheila's personality;a rather infantile easily-led girl who appeared vacant and not with it to the Tiptree shopkeeper and who was tired that same night and didn't say goodnight on the telephone to Auntie Pam as she used to. It tallies with what Jeremy told Julie that Matthew told her to lie down,but before she could Jeremy shot her once and for his intentions failed to kill her outright. It was the only part of the plan he couldn't rehearse,and in desperation at seeing Sheila drop the bloodied bible as she involuntarily moved a hand to her neck he shot her again quickly,then pulled the legs of the dead corpse to make it look as if she had lain down and shot herself,which she could not have done with the silencer which left its mark and spoke from beyond the grave.

[Alias]

Think we mainly accept she couldn't be rational and psychotic at the same time Steve, nothing has changed there. 
No one has ever said she killed in cold blood. Deeply psychotic Sheila could kill as well as anyone else could.  It has nothing to do with her character and everything to do with her illness.

However Alias someone who appears to be sane is often psychotic so planning can still be done in a psychotic state.  Suicide is often a planned act but the person planning it can be in a state of psychosis if you see what I mean. 

I think that was what I was trying to say. 

[maggie]

I think that was what I was trying to say. 

I know