Author Topic: Statement of Ann Eaton 8th - 13th September 1985  (Read 116050 times)

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Caroline R

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Re: Statement of Ann Eaton 8th - 13th September 1985
« Reply #705 on: May 04, 2013, 02:08:AM »
Seriously?? They forgot that they didn't actually ask the cashier to see the manager? That they were accompanied by a police office? That JM didn't do most of the talking (in fact Dovey states that she didn't say anything). The reason for them to lie is that as I have just stated, if they were seen to go to the bank of their own volition, it makes them a better witness than if cohered. Sorry Bridget but I certainly don't buy for one moment that they just forgot or were (like a lot of people in this case) simply 'mistaken'

And, they did get away with it, he wasn't called as a witness!

One more thing before I go for what is for me (lately) and early night - If this was all above board as you would have me believe, were is the statement from the police officer who attended with them? And how were they allowed to make such an omission in their statements when they were officially escorted there by an officer who you would imagine, would have made a report - somewhere?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 02:17:AM by Caroline »

Offline Bridget

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Re: Statement of Ann Eaton 8th - 13th September 1985
« Reply #706 on: May 04, 2013, 02:15:AM »
Seriously?? They forgot that they didn't actually ask the cashier to see the manager? That they were accompanied by a police office? That JM didn't do most of the talking (in fact Dovey states that she didn't say anything). The reason for them to lie is that as I have just stated, if they were seen to go to the bank of their own volition, it makes them a better witness than if cohered. Sorry Bridget but I certainly don't buy for one moment that they just forgot or were (like a lot of people in this case) simply 'mistaken'

He doesn't say anything about the cashier, what makes you think they didn't speak to one?

Where does he say that JM didn't say anything? I'm not saying he didn't say that, but I can't find it.

Why would anyone try to hide the fact that a police officer was present when clearly he was going to say different? Did they forget to bribe him?

....just cos I eat worms...

Caroline R

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Re: Statement of Ann Eaton 8th - 13th September 1985
« Reply #707 on: May 04, 2013, 02:18:AM »
He doesn't say anything about the cashier, what makes you think they didn't speak to one?

Where does he say that JM didn't say anything? I'm not saying he didn't say that, but I can't find it.

Why would anyone try to hide the fact that a police officer was present when clearly he was going to say different? Did they forget to bribe him?

Where is the police officers statement? He wasn't called as a witness so he didn't say anything!!
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 02:19:AM by Caroline »

Offline Bridget

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Re: Statement of Ann Eaton 8th - 13th September 1985
« Reply #708 on: May 04, 2013, 02:20:AM »
And, they did get away with it, he wasn't called as a witness!

The defence were at liberty to call him, but when asked in 2002 whether they would have done in light of the revelation of the discrepancy said the following:

We are conscious of the fact that Mr Edmund Lawson QC, in a statement put before the court, said that he found it difficult to say unequivocally that the defence would have made use of this information even if they had been aware of it. He said of this matter that "it may seem relatively unimportant". He observed, however, that if it showed the police to have been dishonest in that there were denials of what had really happened, then there might have been a use to be made of it to attack police credibility.


And on that basis the CoA decision was:

We are far from persuaded that anything done by the police or by the witnesses was improper on any version of the facts. Insofar as there is now a conflict between the witnesses, we are not persuaded that such conflict would have manifested itself, if these matters had been explored whilst memories remained fresh and notes still survived. Accordingly we are not in any way persuaded that this aspect of the case, which was to an extent removed from the critical features of the case, gives us any cause to doubt the safety of the convictions. We do not accept that any impropriety by the police has been established on the evidence available, either as to their conduct at the time of the visit to the bank or by way of some attempt to cover up their role in the matter.
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline Bridget

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Re: Statement of Ann Eaton 8th - 13th September 1985
« Reply #709 on: May 04, 2013, 02:22:AM »
Where is the police officers statement? He wasn't called as a witness so he didn't say anything!!

Well clearly as far as the prosecution were concerned there was no police officer, but that's not what I asked you.
....just cos I eat worms...

Caroline R

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Re: Statement of Ann Eaton 8th - 13th September 1985
« Reply #710 on: May 04, 2013, 02:30:AM »
The defence were at liberty to call him, but when asked in 2002 whether they would have done in light of the revelation of the discrepancy said the following:

We are conscious of the fact that Mr Edmund Lawson QC, in a statement put before the court, said that he found it difficult to say unequivocally that the defence would have made use of this information even if they had been aware of it. He said of this matter that "it may seem relatively unimportant". He observed, however, that if it showed the police to have been dishonest in that there were denials of what had really happened, then there might have been a use to be made of it to attack police credibility.




And on that basis the CoA decision was:

We are far from persuaded that anything done by the police or by the witnesses was improper on any version of the facts. Insofar as there is now a conflict between the witnesses, we are not persuaded that such conflict would have manifested itself, if these matters had been explored whilst memories remained fresh and notes still survived. Accordingly we are not in any way persuaded that this aspect of the case, which was to an extent removed from the critical features of the case, gives us any cause to doubt the safety of the convictions. We do not accept that any impropriety by the police has been established on the evidence available, either as to their conduct at the time of the visit to the bank or by way of some attempt to cover up their role in the matter.

In the first instance, in no way are they saying they wouldn't have used the discrepancy, truth is they weren't aware of of it and so we will never know. Had they known, perhaps it would have uncovered why there is no statement by the officer who attended the bank with JM and SB- that in itself is suspicious. In the second, the conclusion doesn't surprise me in the least but I don't agree with it!!

Caroline R

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Re: Statement of Ann Eaton 8th - 13th September 1985
« Reply #711 on: May 04, 2013, 02:32:AM »
Well clearly as far as the prosecution were concerned there was no police officer, but that's not what I asked you.

So the whole truth wasn't heard and you don't think that's deceitful? As far as the cashier goes, read JM's statement again and then read Dovey's. That is all I am saying because we will never agree. 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 02:36:AM by Caroline »

Caroline R

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Re: Statement of Ann Eaton 8th - 13th September 1985
« Reply #712 on: May 04, 2013, 03:39:AM »
The relevant section of Julie Mugfords statement .....

There ws no appointment made. (cough!) I think we stood outside the bank for 10 minutes, building ourselves up. Susan was a basket case, very nervous I would have to do the initial talking. We went in as we felt we had to try and correct this. We went to the teller and asked to speak to the manager. We were initially refused (Why? an appointment HAD been made and they weren't alone!!). I said it's about fraud which changed the tellers mind. They went off to speak to somebody. I have been reminded that the visit to the bank occurred on 4th October 1985. The date was not significant in the sense of  appointments (HA!!), it was a day we plucked up courage to go (and you say she didn't lie!! :). It was close to the officer asking us if we had been to the bank. We went though to a room at the back and met someone who we assumed to be the manager. We told him we had lied and said the cheque book was gone. We said we'd spent the cheques Susan now had to do more talking because it was her cheque book. We offered to pay the money back and he asked us questions like, who signed the cheques? How much had we spent? And how we would pay the money back? We asked what would happen from here and would we be arrested. He said he needed to refer to his supervisors as it was not his decision to make (he said it was!). In relation to the arrest he said he didn't think we would be because it was so bizarre that without our admissions it would never be traced. He said that this happened quite a lot in banks and it was most peculiar that people i.e. us, would come to admit what they;ve done and pay off the debt. Te amount was pretty minuscule to the bank (no manager or acting manager would say that!!). We left out name and might have left Stan JONES number" (why? he was probably stood next to them!! :)

and further …..

"I have been specifically asked if there was any collusion with police to ensure that Susan and I attended court without a record and were therefore credible witnesses (this is the reason you asked for!). I am unaware of any if this occurred  I did ask a question about how we could fix the situation and the response did act as a prompt to us. We were never directed , told to do anything or informed to do anything and we were not prompted. As far as I am aware our activities were not monitored. We went to the bank on the day we chose when we had built up the courage. We were not escorted or accompanied by the police on that day. I do not believe I would have immediately reported to Stan JONES that we had attended the bank, but I feel sure that I would have told him during one of our meetings or conversations."

This is completely at odds with what Dovey says and is completely blatant! 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 03:47:AM by Caroline »

Offline Martin

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Re: Statement of Ann Eaton 8th - 13th September 1985
« Reply #713 on: May 04, 2013, 06:15:AM »
The relevant section of Julie Mugfords statement .....

There ws no appointment made. (cough!) I think we stood outside the bank for 10 minutes, building ourselves up. Susan was a basket case, very nervous I would have to do the initial talking. We went in as we felt we had to try and correct this. We went to the teller and asked to speak to the manager. We were initially refused (Why? an appointment HAD been made and they weren't alone!!). I said it's about fraud which changed the tellers mind. They went off to speak to somebody. I have been reminded that the visit to the bank occurred on 4th October 1985. The date was not significant in the sense of  appointments (HA!!), it was a day we plucked up courage to go (and you say she didn't lie!! :). It was close to the officer asking us if we had been to the bank. We went though to a room at the back and met someone who we assumed to be the manager. We told him we had lied and said the cheque book was gone. We said we'd spent the cheques Susan now had to do more talking because it was her cheque book. We offered to pay the money back and he asked us questions like, who signed the cheques? How much had we spent? And how we would pay the money back? We asked what would happen from here and would we be arrested. He said he needed to refer to his supervisors as it was not his decision to make (he said it was!). In relation to the arrest he said he didn't think we would be because it was so bizarre that without our admissions it would never be traced. He said that this happened quite a lot in banks and it was most peculiar that people i.e. us, would come to admit what they;ve done and pay off the debt. Te amount was pretty minuscule to the bank (no manager or acting manager would say that!!). We left out name and might have left Stan JONES number" (why? he was probably stood next to them!! :)

and further …..

"I have been specifically asked if there was any collusion with police to ensure that Susan and I attended court without a record and were therefore credible witnesses (this is the reason you asked for!). I am unaware of any if this occurred  I did ask a question about how we could fix the situation and the response did act as a prompt to us. We were never directed , told to do anything or informed to do anything and we were not prompted. As far as I am aware our activities were not monitored. We went to the bank on the day we chose when we had built up the courage. We were not escorted or accompanied by the police on that day. I do not believe I would have immediately reported to Stan JONES that we had attended the bank, but I feel sure that I would have told him during one of our meetings or conversations."

This is completely at odds with what Dovey says and is completely blatant!

Quote
From Julie Mugford’s statement, page 23

“I next saw Jeremy on Friday, 6th September 1985 when he came to my flat and
helped with Brett to move my furniture to my present address. We left on a
reasonable happy note. I haven't seen him since.
There is one important thing I remember that I must add, when Jeremy phoned
me about 3.15 p.m. on Wednesday, 7th August 1985 he did say "I haven't been
to bed tonight". I remember this because I told him to go to bed.
I have been asked if I have read or been told about a bible found on Sheila's
chest when she was found dead. I can definitely say I haven't but it was
told to me by Jeremy. I will add that some time after the 7th August 1985,
Ann EATON asked me if I knew about a bible which was near Sheila and I told
her that I did and that it was found on her chest. I think I told her it
was creepy. I think she asked me about the bible on the Friday of the week of the murders.”

Julie alleges that Bamber confessed to her that that he had hired Mathew Macdonald to carry out the killings


From pages 11 and 12
“About 8.30 pm the same day Ds JONES and Dc CLARKE left the house leaving
Jeremy and myself alone. We went and sat in the lounge and I think the
first thing Jeremy said was that he was glad the day was over. I than said
to Jeremy, "Did you do it?"
He said,"No, I couldn't have done it, Matthew did it," I knew to whom
he was referring.
He said that before he had phoned me that morning Matthew had phoned from
the house, which I took to be the farm, and said that everything had been
completed and proceeded to tell him about his father who he stated that for
his age he was very strong and had put up a fight. He said that Matthew
had said he was sorry because during the fight with his father he had had
a mental blank and had fired 7 shots into him
.
I asked Jerry if the twins
and Sheila had felt anything and he told me the boys were still asleep and
didn't wake up and that Sheila had lay down on the bed and shot herself.
under the orders of Matthew who then put a bible on her chest.
He told me that he had told Matthew where the gun was going to be, how to get into
the house. He had found out what bedroom they had all been sleeping in as
Sheila and the twins frequently slept in different rooms when they visited
the farm. He also told Matthew 'how to leave the house so it appeared locked,
and the route back to Goldhanger. I asked him how much he paid Matthew and
he said "£2,000."


It’s worth comparing Julie Mugford’s dishonest account of the visit to the bank with her account of Jeremy’s confession, which has a chilling similarity to it from the point of view of style. The addition of incidental details, which seemingly give a ring of truth to the story, is present in both. References to the person's mental state add a sense of realism. For example, Matthew had experienced a "mental blank" and Susan was "a basket case".
 

“The date was not significant in the sense of appointments, it was a day we plucked up courage to go”

"I asked Jerry if the twins and Sheila had felt anything and he told me the boys were still asleep and
didn't wake up and that Sheila had lay down on the bed and shot herself.
under the orders of Matthew who then put a bible on her chest."
 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 07:25:AM by Martin »

Lugg

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Re: Statement of Ann Eaton 8th - 13th September 1985
« Reply #714 on: May 04, 2013, 09:57:AM »
Sorry to drag this back up, but what do you make of this from the appeal?

The first limb of ground 5 is a complaint that the prosecution failed to disclose the fact that both Julie Mugford and Susan Battersby were given immunity.

As Mr Temple points out, in answer to that aspect of the matter, Julie Mugford and Susan Battersby were not granted immunity as such but a decision was taken by the DPP not to prosecute. We therefore read this ground as being a complaint that the documentation relating to the decision not to prosecute each of the witnesses was not disclosed to the defence.


Has further evidence turned up on that issue? If so, was it included in the last CCRC application?
That I believe was a carefully worded statement in order to get round the fact that she was granted immunity. If therefore she was not granted immunity then surely it means that the police can still prosecute, because such a situation leaves her wide open to prosecution if just one piece of "new" evidence is found. But to be honest I can see right through the judge's remarks and I think most people here can also.

Lugg

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Re: Statement of Ann Eaton 8th - 13th September 1985
« Reply #715 on: May 04, 2013, 10:00:AM »
Trouble is Caroline, as you'll see when the appeal notes get to that point, he said at the appeal that he couldn't stand by that.
Why was that do you think Vic?

Lugg

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Re: Statement of Ann Eaton 8th - 13th September 1985
« Reply #716 on: May 04, 2013, 10:03:AM »
No, he was certain that there was a police officer present but couldn't identify that officer as Stan Jones. He also stated that the officer had not put him under any pressure at all to drop any prosecution. So what we have is a difference as to whether or not a police officer attended, and I don't really see how you can decide who is right. Personally I go with Dovey being a reliable witness with no axe to grind and so I believe a police officer was present. But since he says the officer did not put him under any pressure I can't see why anyone would need to lie about it.
It all depends on what is meant by "pressure" doesn't it? I wonder how many banks wouldn't prosecute fraud?

Lugg

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Re: Statement of Ann Eaton 8th - 13th September 1985
« Reply #717 on: May 04, 2013, 10:13:AM »
Seriously?? They forgot that they didn't actually ask the cashier to see the manager? That they were accompanied by a police office? That JM didn't do most of the talking (in fact Dovey states that she didn't say anything). The reason for them to lie is that as I have just stated, if they were seen to go to the bank of their own volition, it makes them a better witness than if cohered. Sorry Bridget but I certainly don't buy for one moment that they just forgot or were (like a lot of people in this case) simply 'mistaken'
Makes you think doesn't it? Just how much of her statement IS to be relied on?

Offline maggie

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Re: Statement of Ann Eaton 8th - 13th September 1985
« Reply #718 on: May 04, 2013, 10:15:AM »
It all depends on what is meant by "pressure" doesn't it? I wonder how many banks wouldn't prosecute fraud?
I agree Lugg particularly because it was a premeditated and coolly executed crime. It wasn't a spur of the moment thing which was worth a try, this was planned. It shows greed and a lack of moral behaviour...she was a.bad lot imo.

Lugg

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Re: Statement of Ann Eaton 8th - 13th September 1985
« Reply #719 on: May 04, 2013, 10:18:AM »
He doesn't say anything about the cashier, what makes you think they didn't speak to one?

Where does he say that JM didn't say anything? I'm not saying he didn't say that, but I can't find it.

Why would anyone try to hide the fact that a police officer was present when clearly he was going to say different? Did they forget to bribe him?
But the fact still remains that they gave a completely different story, thus giving the impression that it was all their own grieving conscience that made them tell the truth and that would have looked far better for them in the eyes of the jury.