Statement of Ann Eaton 8th - 13th September 1985

[killingeve]

Even if you are right, it still only requires certain information and a declaration to be included, it says nothing as to what must be included in the main body of the statement.

Morning Miss Bridget

The only criteria for the main body is that it is true to the the best of the witness' knowledge and belief.  Imo this wasn't the case as set out in my post #418.  It was more than an omission or withholding. 

[killingeve]

I notice you never say just family when it comes to Jeremy or Sheila. Jeremy doesn´t really have two families - he never med any of his birth relatives, and Sheila only met her birth mother briefly.
Personally I prefer the term, family without the adopted - it seems to imply some sort of wedge existing at all times.

Hi Alias

In addition to my post of yesterday, if you care to have a look at page 1 and 2 of AE's wit stats on this thread you will see that she refers to SC and JB as June and NB's adopted children not just their children.  There may be further references on the other pages but I just specifically recall pages 1 and 2 and haven't got time now to go through the other pages.

Also pretty much the first entry in RB's diary recounts an incident where JB was supposedly teased at school about being a bastard which RB appears to attribute in some way to the murders 

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=246.0;attach=635

As an adoptee I have to agree to some degree that there are fundamental differences between birth and adoptive families.  More so with 'closed' adoptions.  There is a mountain of professional evidence to support this.  Also the fact that adoptive parents received no pre or post adoption counselling did not help matters.  This was perhaps due to the fact that when 'closed' adoptions were arranged most professionals thought like posters on the forum ie no difference between birth and adoptive families.  But many poor outcomes, as evidenced by the Bamber family, showed that this was far from true.

[susan]

Morning N/N  I find that rather strange to say the least that any family member would refer to the Bambers as adopted children must not have felt an affinity towards them

[killingeve]

I have to be diplomatic and say, I don´t know. I don´t know how June felt, I don´t have enough knowledge about her. She had some mental problems during the faze where she should have bonded with her child, and that most likely damaged their relationship. The early bonding is so important.
Still, June could have loved her daughter and accepted her. It seems the Bambers went to great lengths to help and accomodate Sheila.
I don´t know, NN.

I agree Alias in that I have no idea how June felt about Sheila.  I agree also that June's mental illness in '59 might have caused bonding issues (attachment disorder) and caused SC irreparable pyschological damage which appears not to have been picked up on by Dr F.

With regard to how SC felt about June I would say she disliked her intensely perhaps even hated her.  I base this on Colin's book, statements from SC's girlfriends in Claire Powell's book and Dr F's wit stats.  I can see no evidence whatsoever of a satisfactory relationship in Sheila's eyes.

[Jane]

NN,,times have changed since the 60's/70's and 80's,,where emotions weren't as openly expressed as today.
Years ago,,as long as parents fed,clothed and looked after children to the best of their ability,,it was sufficient and acceptable. Their duties were done. I would say that most were kissed goodnight,then in the morning on their way to school,,and maybe as infants were perched on parents knees while stories were read to them,,as in my own household,,but no outward show of emotion. Children weren't molly-coddled either,,they were taught such things as good manners,courtesy,,good morals.

I'm not adopted, had a cousin who was.
Parents provided me with everything I needed, looked after me. Were never big on hugs or kisses or the word 'love'.

But I think it's all just personal experiences and not really relevant to the case at all.

Mat/Lookout, please forgive me for putting you in bed together but it seemed the best way to address you both.

Lookout, you're correct that emotions are expressed more openly now than they were 50 years ago when a spotlessly clean house was the benchmark of a good mother. That would have made my mother Queen of mothers. It wasn't done for my benefit, though, it was done for her own. IMO, children would rather have a mother's time and approval than a dustfree environment and ironed sheets. I realized very early that both took precedence over me. I also felt the differences in response to me between my mother who told me constantly that "It doesn't matter, it's only you" and those people to whom I obviously did matter. I never FELT loved by my mother. I don't even know if she believed it necessary to love me. She had a purpose for me and providing I fulfilled it, I would have repaid her "generosity" in providing me with a home. Can any woman who loves her daughter call her a "whore" and "devil's child"? Rest assured those words don't come from nowhere, they've been running around inside heads for aeons, waiting for an opportunity, before they're spat out. Something perhaps, to do with the sins of the (birth)mother being visited on the (adopted)daughter.

Mat, there's a lot going on here, isn't there? You're post sounds like a mixture of "I'm all right, Jack" and "So what?" However, it's not your fault that you don't understand, but IMO, it's ignorance to shrug it off as "personal experience and not really relevant to the case at all" IMO, it's at the bottom of what this case is about.

[killingeve]

Morning N/N  I find that rather strange to say the least that any family member would refer to the Bambers as adopted children must not have felt an affinity towards them

Morning Susan

I can't imagine my adoptive cousins/uncles ever referring to me and/or my adopted brother as the adopted children of our adoptive parents 

[susan]

Morning april

Mat and lookout in bed together I think not somehow they lack the chemistry   May I add being brought up in Yorkshire where cuddles and hugs were short on the ground did not mean my parents did not love me to the contrary.  I know many people who hug and cuddle and it is quite meaningless.

[lookout]

Morning april

Mat and lookout in bed together I think not somehow they lack the chemistry   May I add being brought up in Yorkshire where cuddles and hugs were short on the ground did not mean my parents did not love me to the contrary.  I know many people who hug and cuddle and it is quite meaningless.

Good morning Susan.My thoughts exactly. What sticks in my mind more than anything,was the fact that I felt love even though it wasn't given freely. I also felt secure and " looked after " and above all,wanted.
I despair at the way some parents speak to and bahave towards their children. Tiniest tots being ignored while their mothers are busy on their mobiles.
At least as children,we conversed with parents and learned from them.

[susan]

Hi lookout  I felt secure and loved and knew my parents would have put their life on the line for me but we were never into hugging and kissing we did not need to demonstrate our love for each other in a tactile fashion.

[killingeve]

Mat/Lookout, please forgive me for putting you in bed together but it seemed the best way to address you both.

Lookout, you're correct that emotions are expressed more openly now than they were 50 years ago when a spotlessly clean house was the benchmark of a good mother. That would have made my mother Queen of mothers. It wasn't done for my benefit, though, it was done for her own. IMO, children would rather have a mother's time and approval than a dustfree environment and ironed sheets. I realized very early that both took precedence over me. I also felt the differences in response to me between my mother who told me constantly that "It doesn't matter, it's only you" and those people to whom I obviously did matter. I never FELT loved by my mother. I don't even know if she believed it necessary to love me. She had a purpose for me and providing I fulfilled it, I would have repaid her "generosity" in providing me with a home. Can any woman who loves her daughter call her a "whore" and "devil's child"? Rest assured those words don't come from nowhere, they've been running around inside heads for aeons, waiting for an opportunity, before they're spat out. Something perhaps, to do with the sins of the (birth)mother being visited on the (adopted)daughter.

Mat, there's a lot going on here, isn't there? You're post sounds like a mixture of "I'm all right, Jack" and "So what?" However, it's not your fault that you don't understand, but IMO, it's ignorance to shrug it off as "personal experience and not really relevant to the case at all" IMO, it's at the bottom of what this case is about.

Brilliant post April 

Lookout and Mat both have birth children.  Therefore neither have experienced infertility and the loss that this brings about.  Neither were adopted via a 'closed' adoption and therefore did not lose their identity before having to assume another. 

I do not normally recount personal experiences instead I tend to discuss adoption on the forum in terms of research, studies and outcomes undertaken by professionals but the following is perhaps a good personal experience to illustrate the point.

At about 9 yoa I went to the hairdressers with my adoptive mum.  My mum had her done and then I had mine done.  The hairdresser said to me, whilst cutting my hair and in the presence of my mum, that I had lovely thick wavy hair and that it was unlike my mum's so I must take after my dad.  My mum immediately said "oh yes she does".  I could see all sorts of emotions run across my mum's face.  I never said a word.  Why the lie?  Why the denial?  Why the secret?  Where did my hair come from?  Why was I unable to know?  I never mentioned the incident to my mum ever and vice-versa.  This was the charade which was played out 24/7 

[lookout]

Hi lookout  I felt secure and loved and knew my parents would have put their life on the line for me but we were never into hugging and kissing we did not need to demonstrate our love for each other in a tactile fashion.

That's right Susan. I'm afraid I give a negative result to those children who do " hang on " to their parents,,or ask if they're loved,,because it immediately tells me that there's some insecurity somewhere.
We weren't a hugging/kissing family. I suppose as a child,I didn't feel the need as things were the norm as far as I was concerned,,and I never felt as though I was missing out at all. The thought wouldn't have entered my head really.
It's only in the last 20 or so years,,that people have been made aware,brainwashed I call it,,,for the need to smother your children in hugs and kisses.

[killingeve]

Morning april

Mat and lookout in bed together I think not somehow they lack the chemistry   May I add being brought up in Yorkshire where cuddles and hugs were short on the ground did not mean my parents did not love me to the contrary.  I know many people who hug and cuddle and it is quite meaningless.

Yes I agree.  My parents kissed me at bedtime, when I left for school and if we were apart ie overnight away with friends/family or hol.  This appeared to be the norm amongst all my peers too.  I'm a little more tactile with my children but I think that's just the era rather that anything else.

[Jane]

Good morning Susan.My thoughts exactly. What sticks in my mind more than anything,was the fact that I felt love even though it wasn't given freely. I also felt secure and " looked after " and above all,wanted.
I despair at the way some parents speak to and bahave towards their children. Tiniest tots being ignored while their mothers are busy on their mobiles.
At least as children,we conversed with parents and learned from them.

Morning april

Mat and lookout in bed together I think not somehow they lack the chemistry   May I add being brought up in Yorkshire where cuddles and hugs were short on the ground did not mean my parents did not love me to the contrary.  I know many people who hug and cuddle and it is quite meaningless.

Lookout/Susan, I would agree with you entirely that children don't want/need to be smothered to show love. The important thing is that they FEEL love, which IMO, comes in a package of feeling part of the family unit/secure, feeling accepted, feeling they matter, feeling valued. When all these thing fall into place love becomes understood, which I think is what you are both saying of your childhoods. Susan, if a child has had the benefit of meaningful hugs and cuddles it will know the difference between those and meaningless gestures.

[maggie]

Hi NN, was this incident before or after you had been told you were adopted? Were parents told they musnt discuss the adoption with their children? Thst meant both parents and children were living a lie and that lie was bound to form a division between them. In my case ... blond mum of Asian children it was impossible to deceive even if Id wanted too.

[killingeve]

Hi NN, was this incident before or after you had been told you were adopted? Were parents told they musnt discuss the adoption with their children? Thst meant both parents and children were living a lie and that lie was bound to form a division between them. In my case ... blond mum of Asian children it was impossible to deceive even if Id wanted too.

Hi Maggie

After I was told I had been adopted.  My Mum told me when I was very young I had no idea what it all meant.  Perhaps around the time I started school    I think she said something like my other Mother was unable to look after me and that I hadn't grown in her tummy    This was whilst she was bathing me.  I then remember going all through family members and asking if they were adopted.  When I kept hearing the word "No" I thought this doesn't sound good    Eventually I got to my Brother and she said "Yes" so I felt a little better that at least someone else was "adopted" whatever that meant.  .  I don't ever recall the subject being raised again...EVER!  Even though I was very young I seemed to understand that it was taboo and a once only conversation not to be referred to again.  I have never discussed it once with my Dad!