Re: Adoption Debate

[Lugg]

Hi Caroline

Yes ok thanks.  Can't imagine we will stand much chance of 'pulling' on this thread though ie don't expect much through traffic from the male species save perhaps Steve_uk may venture in if we're lucky of course . 

It's interesting though that male posters rarely comment on the family relationships etc and tend to stick to the 'hard' evidence eg scene of crime, gun(s), silencer(s), blood, phone logs etc.  Whereas female posters appear to consider both? 

That's not strictly true though. As Steve-uk is often commenting on those things. I personally do not know much about adoption families or adoption in general. So on the whole I leave it up to the experts

[lookout]

NN,,Sheilas' adoption would have had nothing to do with the WHF murders. It was a faulty gene that the girl had to start with,,as can happen to anyone,including blood relatives. Scientists are now finding out what causes a person to develop schizophrenia through the brains' " wiring process " and who's likely to be susceptible to the illness ( which is NEVER mild,,as Dr Ferguson put it )

Most likely,,the gene that poor Sheila had acquired may have skipped a generation or two,,but somewhere along the line,there could well have been someone in her family who had such a gene,,but wouldn't have known. It's a brutal act of nature which can strike the unsuspecting,,,though there's a trigger involved.

[killingeve]

That's not strictly true though. As Steve-uk is often commenting on those things. I personally do not know much about adoption families or adoption in general. So on the whole I leave it up to the experts

Yes Steve_uk does comment on the adoption angle.  He's often quite critical of June too.  I'm not sure if he has any direct experience or he's just perceptive or something else 

Very sensible Lugg that's why I try to bring so many links in to hear what the professionals say no point in me sounding off about my own adoption experience 

[lookout]

I somehow feel that Steve isn't enjoying life at the moment. Just a hunch.

[Lugg]

I somehow feel that Steve isn't enjoying life at the moment. Just a hunch.

If he's on here every day then its a cert he isn't. Some of this stuff is enough to depress anyone.

[killingeve]

NN,,Sheilas' adoption would have had nothing to do with the WHF murders. It was a faulty gene that the girl had to start with,,as can happen to anyone,including blood relatives. Scientists are now finding out what causes a person to develop schizophrenia through the brains' " wiring process " and who's likely to be susceptible to the illness ( which is NEVER mild,,as Dr Ferguson put it )

Most likely,,the gene that poor Sheila had acquired may have skipped a generation or two,,but somewhere along the line,there could well have been someone in her family who had such a gene,,but wouldn't have known. It's a brutal act of nature which can strike the unsuspecting,,,though there's a trigger involved.

I have to disagree with you there Lookout.  My belief is that the WHF murders were based on adoption psychology and an attachment disorder.  Most psychologists and psychiatrists are now firmly of the opinion that schizophrenia is environmental.  How do you know Sheila suffered from schizophrenia?  We only have Dr Ferguson's word for that; a professional that had every reason to be conflicted and cover up.  Colin firmly believes that Sheila's mental health issues were rooted in her adoption experience and relationship with June.  So too does another very reliable source   

A while back I gained approval from Mike to do a 'locked topic' on adoption bringing together all the evidence eg extracts from witness statements, Colin's book etc along with links from the professionals.  I will then personally contact numerous professionals eg psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers etc to join the forum specifically to comment on the matter and raise the profile.  This will obviously take some time but perhaps we should defer an absolute decision until then 

[killingeve]

If he's on here every day then its a cert he isn't. Some of this stuff is enough to depress anyone.

In what way is it depressing?    

Anyway I must get on with some REAL work now. 

The adoption show is now over for today.  Here's a little something to keep you all going:

http://www.theadoptionshow.com/

That's ya lot for today folks 

[lookout]

I have to disagree with you there Lookout.  My belief is that the WHF murders were based on adoption psychology and an attachment disorder.  Most psychologists and psychiatrists are now firmly of the opinion that schizophrenia is environmental.  How do you know Sheila suffered from schizophrenia?  We only have Dr Ferguson's word for that; a professional that had every reason to be conflicted and cover up.  Colin firmly believes that Sheila's mental health issues were rooted in her adoption experience and relationship with June.  So too does another very reliable source   

A while back I gained approval from Mike to do a 'locked topic' on adoption bringing together all the evidence eg extracts from witness statements, Colin's book etc along with links from the professionals.  I will then personally contact numerous professionals eg psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers etc to join the forum specifically to comment on the matter and raise the profile.  This will obviously take some time but perhaps we should defer an absolute decision until then 

I personally think that Sheilas' " mental " problems stemmed from puberty. Then as her hormones developed and she became pregnant at 17 ( which was aborted ) the girl will have suffered post-natally,,excerbated by two miscarriages/terminations which added to her hormonal imbalance then giving birth to the twins and having to spend time in hospital prior to the births,,left untreated,,does lead to severe mental illness,in time,,,PND.. The more that Sheila ignored the signs of being unwell,,the more a "defence mechanism "would automatically kick,, in which is a chemical given off by the thyroid gland involved in the " fight or flight " situation and if left,,can lead to serious problems.

You would have to read up on Endocrinology to understand how the balance of Sheilas' hormones would have been tipped.

[big-goolies]

I personally think that Sheilas' " mental " problems stemmed from puberty. Then as her hormones developed and she became pregnant at 17 ( which was aborted ) the girl will have suffered post-natally,,excerbated by two miscarriages/terminations which added to her hormonal imbalance then giving birth to the twins and having to spend time in hospital prior to the births,,left untreated,,does lead to severe mental illness,in time,,,PND.. The more that Sheila ignored the signs of being unwell,,the more a "defence mechanism "would automatically kick,, in which is a chemical given off by the thyroid gland involved in the " fight or flight " situation and if left,,can lead to serious problems.

You would have to read up on Endocrinology to understand how the balance of Sheilas' hormones would have been tipped.

 
and for all the effects these prenacies had on her and she was considering having more around the time of the murders

[Jane]

 
and for all the effects these prenacies had on her and she was considering having more around the time of the murders

Was she, BG? Where did you learn that? I know she was found to have had an IUD fitted and that's not something she could have removed herself in order to conceive.

[big-goolies]

Was she, BG? Where did you learn that? I know she was found to have had an IUD fitted and that's not something she could have removed herself in order to conceive.

 
i believe she had spoken to her psychologist

[Jane]

 
i believe she had spoken to her psychologist

Presumably someone other than Dr Ferguson, who was a consultant psychiatrist. She seemed to have had no regular partner and I imagine it would not have been possible for her to raise a child without support. Why else would Colin have the twins?

[killingeve]

Anything I have disagreed about with NN was many months ago, i disagree with her or anyone else making assumptions about June. NN believes June adopted reluctantly and every other assumption she makes follows from that. I say I dont know what June's feelings about adoption were and she very well may have longed for a baby.  We dont onow the whole truth of Sheila' relationship with June...relationships are complex things. I believe Sheila was a happy child and all the troubles started in adolescance.  We dont know when Sheila started showing early signs of her illness which probably would not have been recognised by june and ralph and may have been seen as wickedness by June.
That is my argument but it is only a point of view and as far as I am concerned I have the right to hold it. I have never felt any animosity to NN although her views are different, in fact I considered her a friend until she made it clear she didnt see me as a friend of hers.
I wont be commenting anymore about this you'll all be relieved to hear.

Hi Maggie

I responded to this on Friday but it appears to have got lost somewhere 

I did not say that June adopted reluctantly I said ambivalently:

Psychology . the coexistence within an individual of positive and negative feelings toward the same person, object, or action, simultaneously drawing him or her in opposite directions.

I struggle to comprehend how a woman like June with strong religious beliefs and firm views on sexual morality reconciled her feelings with regard to adopting two illegitimate children.

As we know June took her religious beliefs seriously.  The CoA document states the following:

14.   June Bamber was also 61 years old. Religion had always played a strong part in her life. In her latter years her interest in this regard had to an extent come to dominate her thinking, to a point that might have been thought to be obsessive. In 1982, she received treatment at a psychiatric hospital in Northampton

(Note no ref to June's mental illness in 1959 

Given the above and my post as follows:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3955.msg164365.html#msg164365

and the following link referring to adoptive parents and religion I'm sure you will understand my thinking 

http://www.originsnsw.com/mentalhealth/id5.html

The above link quotes Dr Alexina Mcwhinnie from Dundee university as follows:

"Mc Whinnie also refers to her study about the conditions of religious affiliation for prospective adopters. Her study again shows that other factors are important here, and it should not be assumed that because the adopters are members of a church they would make sympathetic adopters. In fact it would seem important to assess particularly carefully the attitudes of those who hold very rigid religious beliefs since these, if unduly puritanical, might lead them to finding difficulty in accepting illegitimacy and the child born to unmarried parents"

Lol I have no idea how my adoptive parents manged to 'acquire' me given that my Dad is and always has been an ardent atheist and my adoptive mother not far behind.  I'm sure they must have lied to the adoption agency  .  I remember my Dad, brother and me loved those Dave Allen sketches about religion.  Thank you Daddy for setting me on the right path 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxo81Ok9Urk

[andrea]

Nowt wrong with Atheism 

[killingeve]

Nowt wrong with Atheism 

Too right