Author Topic: Charles Marsden  (Read 4115 times)

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Offline killingeve

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Charles Marsden
« on: February 05, 2013, 11:13:PM »
Steve_uk has asked posters to rate the credibility of Charles Marsden as a *prosecution witness but I've noticed that many posters have no idea who CM is.  So for those in doubt I've taken all the info verbatim from Wilkes' book.  Charles Marsden was the boyfriend of JM's friend, Liz Rimmington.  And although CM was interviewed by the police I don't believe he was actually a *prosecution witness?

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Para 1

"A friend of Jeremy, Charles Mardsen, called round, and someone suggested going out for dinner.  Once again, the venue was the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham, although for some reason the party didn't eat.  They just drunk"

Para 2

"The detectives were intrigued by the tale told by another of Jeremy Bamber's friends, the sales manager for a computer firm, called Charles Marsden.  Marsden was also the boyfriend of Liz Rimmington.  He described how he'd become part of Jeremy's set at the Frog and Beans wine bar in Colchester.  He explained that in a crowd that included women, Jeremy would splash out with money to the extent that he could be called 'flash'.  'He was impressed by money,' Marsden added.  'He was impressed by people who spend a lot and the things that money could buy, such as expensive cars.'  Although he worked for a modest wage on his father's farm, Jeremy had boasted that one day he would be a wealthy man.  Marsden took this to mean that one day Jeremy expected to inherit his parents' money.

Para 3

In December 1984, Jeremy had announced that his entire family were getting together to celebrate Christimas.  This was unusual.  During a drinking session at a wine bar in Maldon, Jeremy had confided to Charles Marsden that if the farmhouse were to burn down over Christmas, everything would be his.  'I thought at the time that this was a strange thing to say,' Marsden reported, 'but didn't particularly take any notice.'

Para 4

At teatime on the day following the White House Farm massacre, Jeremy Bamber had appeared at Charles Marsden's office in Colchester.  Marsden knew nothing of what had happened, and Jeremy poured out the story that Marsden later read in the newspapers.  The two men drove to a little pub outside Colchester and talked for about half an hour.  'I thought it strange that Jeremy had come to see me with this news,' Marsden admitted, 'but I thought he was probably in shock.'  What struck Charles Marsden most forcibly was that in speaking of Sheila - the sister he said had murdered his entire family and then shot herself - Jeremy showed neither emotion nor anger towards her. 

Para 5

Marsden said that he had visited Jeremy at his cottage the previous Thursday night.  Brett Collins had cooked them a chicken dinner and the three had then repaired to the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham for drinks.  Jeremy had announced that he and Julie had split up the previous weekend.  While he didn't give a specific reason, Marsden had the impression that Julie had disliked Brett Collins.  In any case, Jeremy added, he now had a new girlfriend, Virginia Greaves, who used to go out with Mike Deckers of the Frog and Beans.  Jeremy also told Charles Marsden that he and Brett were going to sell Bourtree Cottage and move to Sheila's flat in Maida Vale.  Virginia would move in too, Jeremy added.

Para 6

The detectives seemed anxious to probe Jeremy Bamber's sexual habits and preferences.  They learned from Charles Marsden that Jeremy possessed an animal magnetism for women.  Marsden said that while he knew of only two serious girlfriends, Suzette Ford and Julie Mugford, Jeremy had had many one-night stands.  He enjoyed going to clubs, such as Stringfellows in London, pulling women.  Marsden recalled an evening before the murders when he and Jeremy had gone drinking at Jeremy's local, the Chequers at Goldhangers.  They had picked up a couple of girls, one of whom had agreed to return with them to Jeremy's cottage.  Marsden, very drunk, had crashed out in Jeremy's bed.  Some time later, he'd been awoken by movement in the bed.  Lying there half asleep, Marsden realised that Jeremy had brought the girl upstairs and that the couple were having sex.  The idea of three-in-a bed sex excited the detectives' curiosity still further.  But Charles Marsden was at pains to insist that he hadn't taken part in the sex session.  And when Jeremy returned from walking the girl home, Marsden himself had got up and driven home.

Para 7

Later, at Bourtree Cottage , he'd spread the money all over the floor to look at it, before stashing it all in his little Chinese trick box and calling Charles and Liz to arrange an expensive night out.  The following evening the foursome dined out at Fifi's in Colchester and drank pink and white champagne all evening.  The bill came to £125.

Para 8

Stan Jones leafed through a sheaf of typewritten papers on the table in front of him.  'So,' he said, 'you know Charles Marsden?'  Jeremy said he did.  'He and I were very close a few years ago, and not so close now as I don't really see him that often.'  The detective continued to look through his papers.  'Do you remember me yesterday putting to you that Julie had said that you intended to drug the family and burn the farm down when they were all in it ?  Bamber said he remembered and that Julie was telling lies.  'You see' said Stan Jones, running a finger down one of the statements, 'Charles Marsden also says the same thing.  He says that around Christmas time last year, when all the family, your parents, Sheila and twins were there, you told him that if you burned the house down with all them in it, you'd get everything.  Is he telling lies as well?  Jeremy said he didn't remember discussing the matter with Marsden, and that he concluded that his friend was lying.  Stan Jones put the statement down on the table.  Julie's telling lies.' he said, recapping 'and he is telling lies.  For what reason? 'No comment.'

Para 9

Charles Marsden had also called to say that he'd been interviewed by detectives no fewer than three times.

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See the subtle anomalies at paras 3 and 8 from book excerpt in marked lines.  CM says "...if the farmhouse were to burn down..."  Stan Jones says "...you told him that if you burned the house down with all them in it..."
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 11:18:PM by Naughty Nun »

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Charles Marsden
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2013, 11:34:PM »
Granted Charles Marsden wasn't a Prosecution witness but he was interviewed three times by detectives. The rest you are nitpicking as usual..

Offline tyler

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Re: Charles Marsden
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2013, 11:39:PM »
And yet Sheila did not spend the christmas of 84 at whf! She spent it in London with Freddie..and probably the boys too?

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Charles Marsden
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2013, 11:42:PM »
And yet Sheila did not spend the christmas of 84 at whf! She spent it in London with Freddie..and probably the boys too?
Thank heavens for that-very sensible of her in retrospect.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Charles Marsden
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2013, 11:49:PM »
Granted Charles Marsden wasn't a Prosecution witness but he was interviewed three times by detectives. The rest you are nitpicking as usual..

Was that a thank you to Naughty Nun for typing it all up Steve_uk? 

I think posters can judge for themselves whether or not its 'nitpicking'. 

Night night sleep tight x

mertol22

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Re: Charles Marsden
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2013, 12:07:AM »
Taken from a book steves best friend, we are in nowhereland.

Offline big-goolies

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Re: Charles Marsden
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2013, 12:10:AM »
i see JB's classic line of 'no comment' when a question/statement becomes unanswerable.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Charles Marsden
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2013, 10:12:AM »
i see JB's classic line of 'no comment' when a question/statement becomes unanswerable.

So would we, probably, if Stan Jones was attempting to put words in our mouth  :)

Offline Jane

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Re: Charles Marsden
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2013, 11:08:AM »
i see JB's classic line of 'no comment' when a question/statement becomes unanswerable.



I'm not quite certain of another appropriate comment one could use under the circumstances.

Offline lookout

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Re: Charles Marsden
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2013, 12:17:PM »


I'm not quite certain of another appropriate comment one could use under the circumstances.


Jeremys' wages were seen as a small fortune back in the 80's,,,so a bit of " showing-off " would have been in order,,,particularly after a few drinks when the boasting mode came into play as to how rich he'd be if he were to be the only survivor of a fire.  All talk I'm afraid. Anyone with intentions to murder by fire or anything else,,,says nothing,,,but Jeremy was too thick to realise that should something drastic ever happen,,,then he'd be the suspect. He was too lose-tongued to be a criminal.
If he'd been a quiet,anti-social character who'd kept to himself,,,then yes,,I'd have had my suspicions,,,but he was quite an extroverted character with many friends,,even if they were only after his money,,,he was even too thick to see through that. Poor Jeremy,,,what a wake-up call he got.

Offline Jane

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Re: Charles Marsden
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2013, 12:32:PM »
Granted Charles Marsden wasn't a Prosecution witness but he was interviewed three times by detectives. The rest you are nitpicking as usual..



Steve, I rather think it's partly due to the amount of times you've quoted, as proof of Jeremy's guilt, the words of this unknown, that this thread was started and whilst you never actually lied about his prominence in the eyes of the prosecution, I am minded that you didn't exactly tell the entire truth either, in that until now, you haven't discouraged us from believing he was a star witness.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Charles Marsden
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2013, 08:18:PM »


Steve, I rather think it's partly due to the amount of times you've quoted, as proof of Jeremy's guilt, the words of this unknown, that this thread was started and whilst you never actually lied about his prominence in the eyes of the prosecution, I am minded that you didn't exactly tell the entire truth either, in that until now, you haven't discouraged us from believing he was a star witness.
But why would there be a fire at White House Farm on the occasion of the Christmas gathering in 1984? Was June going to burn the turkey? Can't you see how damaging this is for the Defence if on the only other occasion before the first week of August 1985 the whole family would be sleeping together under one roof(the claim of another member that in fact Sheila decided to spend Christmas with Freddi in London after all if true would not have been known by Jeremy in advance)that Jeremy had again thought in terms of some "accident" is supicious to say the least.

There is not so much difference in hindsight between Jeremy speculating that the Farm might burn down and DS Stan Jones saying words to the effect that "if you burned down the Farm".

Offline maggie

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Re: Charles Marsden
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2013, 08:36:PM »
But why would there be a fire at White House Farm on the occasion of the Christmas gathering in 1984? Was June going to burn the turkey? Can't you see how damaging this is for the Defence if on the only other occasion before the first week of August 1985 the whole family would be sleeping together under one roof(the claim of another member that in fact Sheila decided to spend Christmas with Freddi in London after all if true would not have been known by Jeremy in advance)that Jeremy had again thought in terms of some "accident" is supicious to say the least.

There is not so much difference in hindsight between Jeremy speculating that the Farm might burn down and DS Stan Jones saying words to the effect that "if you burned down the Farm".
Steve, surely a fire is a bit random if you are trying to kill 5 people in an old rambling house like that.  There were three staircases for escape from different areas upstairs and no doubt solid stone walls between most if not all the rooms.  No guarantees that anyone, never mind all would die from a fire in such a house. imo

Offline Jane

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Re: Charles Marsden
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2013, 08:49:PM »
But why would there be a fire at White House Farm on the occasion of the Christmas gathering in 1984? Was June going to burn the turkey? Can't you see how damaging this is for the Defence if on the only other occasion before the first week of August 1985 the whole family would be sleeping together under one roof(the claim of another member that in fact Sheila decided to spend Christmas with Freddi in London after all if true would not have been known by Jeremy in advance)that Jeremy had again thought in terms of some "accident" is supicious to say the least.

There is not so much difference in hindsight between Jeremy speculating that the Farm might burn down and DS Stan Jones saying words to the effect that "if you burned down the Farm".


As you SO rightly say, why on earth SHOULD there have been a fire. As strange an occurence perhaps as actually having the whole family under one roof. So strange that it may have prompted Jeremy to say an innocent, off the cuff remark which was later to be used against him. I would argue that saying "If the house burned down...." is wholly different from the words Stan Jones applied to him "If I burned down the farm......." I believe too, that Sheila didn't exactly change her mind about going to her parents that Christmas. She was in the early stages of the psychosis which would result in her being hospitalized  in the early months of the following year.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Charles Marsden
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2013, 08:56:PM »

As you SO rightly say, why on earth SHOULD there have been a fire. As strange an occurence perhaps as actually having the whole family under one roof. So strange that it may have prompted Jeremy to say an innocent, off the cuff remark which was later to be used against him. I would argue that saying "If the house burned down...." is wholly different from the words Stan Jones applied to him "If I burned down the farm......." I believe too, that Sheila didn't exactly change her mind about going to her parents that Christmas. She was in the early stages of the psychosis which would result in her being hospitalized  in the early months of the following year.
Where does all the information about Sheila changing her mind at Christmas 1984 come from? As for her stay in hospital in March 1985 I go on what she wrote to Ann Eaton,which was uncannily similar to the remark she made in her diary that fatal week at White House Farm:"I didn't mean to be horrible to Jeremy.."