Lack of ammunition-handling evidence on Sheila's hands

[mike tesko]

Do you really think she could have loaded three magazines worth of ammunition, and fired all rounds, without there being any evidence of it?

Yes, Sheila could have handled the 15 or so additional bullets from the batch of Eley .22 subsonic hollow point ammunition the remainder of which was found tipped out on the kitchen worktop, and she could have reloaded the gun the necessary twice more to enable her to carry out the shootings without getting any significant level of lead deposit on her hands through handling ammunition coated in wax. It seems to me to be somewhat ridiculous to examine these hand swabs and use the results to suggest that because of low lead deposits found in the test sample it means Sheila did not and  could not have handled any of the additional 15 bullets required to do the deed? First of all, before you can start thinking of even going down that road, you need to know what level of lead deposit you can expect to find through handling bullets from the same batch? If the bullets of the same batch are / were sufficiently coated in layers of wax, you might not get any trace of lead on the hands of somebody like Sheila handling it. Let us also not forget that a police officer handled the remainlng (loose) 29 bullets tipped out onto the kitchen worktop and whoever that  officer was he or she never felt it necessary to mention anything at all about how messy it was handling these particular bullets at the scene or eksewhere?

[mike tesko]

It may also suprise you to learn that the cardboard ammunition box inside which was originally kept the batch of bullets used in the shootings, did not produce any evidence that lead deposit from any of the prepacked 50 bullet could have contaminated it. Neither was the kitchen worktop upon which the 29 loose bullets and the box that had previously contained them...

[bloggs and son]

If you look at a .22 rifle round you will see that it is made up mostly of the copper casing. Therefore I doubt very much if there would be much if any lead deposit on the handler of these bullets when loading?
And as I said before, because this was a long gun and not a pistol I doubt very much with such a small calibre that anyone would get much of a trace if any from discharging the gun? Those of you who are gunslingers please comment.

[Bridget]

If you look at a .22 rifle round you will see that it is made up mostly of the copper casing. Therefore I doubt very much if there would be much if any lead deposit on the handler of these bullets when loading?
And as I said before, because this was a long gun and not a pistol I doubt very much with such a small calibre that anyone would get much of a trace if any from discharging the gun? Those of you who are gunslingers please comment.

Two lab assistants loaded 18 'similar' cartridges and when tested showed significantly higher levels of lead deposits than were found on Sheila. You'd have to see Brian Elliot's (HO scientist) evidence to know what similar means, and how the tests were conducted.

If you read the link I posted earlier, they concluded that most GSR deposited on the shooter's hand was blasted back from leaks around the breech. The tests were single shots from both shotguns and rifles and GSR was found on every occasion. The rifle used was a 30-30 (I have no idea what that is but assume its larger than a 22). Whether the tests used in 1985 were good enough to detect small amounts though, I don't know. Here is an article which describes the different methods used then and now in the US, I assume we follow their lead:

http://wrongfulconvictionsblog.org/2012/03/16/gunshot-residue-evidence-what-it-really-takes/

[bloggs and son]

Two lab assistants loaded 18 'similar' cartridges and when tested showed significantly higher levels of lead deposits than were found on Sheila. You'd have to see Brian Elliot's (HO scientist) evidence to know what similar means, and how the tests were conducted.

If you read the link I posted earlier, they concluded that most GSR deposited on the shooter's hand was blasted back from leaks around the breech. The tests were single shots from both shotguns and rifles and GSR was found on every occasion. The rifle used was a 30-30 (I have no idea what that is but assume its larger than a 22). Whether the tests used in 1985 were good enough to detect small amounts though, I don't know. Here is an article which describes the different methods used then and now in the US, I assume we follow their lead:

http://wrongfulconvictionsblog.org/2012/03/16/gunshot-residue-evidence-what-it-really-takes/

Did those lab assistants use a .22 rifle for their tests? I'm afraid that "similar" suggests to me that those tests would not be good enough for a true comparison? I've used .22 rifles at carnivals when it was legal and quite frankly there was almost nothing other that the bullet that came out of either the end of the barrel, or the breach. Honestly it was rather like shooting an airgun and sounded like a cap gun. In fact I would say that you would get more residue from a cap gun than you would a .22 rifle?

[mike tesko]

I am currently at / in Witnan, on urgent business...

[Bridget]

Did those lab assistants use a .22 rifle for their tests? I'm afraid that "similar" suggests to me that those tests would not be good enough for a true comparison? I've used .22 rifles at carnivals when it was legal and quite frankly there was almost nothing other that the bullet that came out of either the end of the barrel, or the breach. Honestly it was rather like shooting an airgun and sounded like a cap gun. In fact I would say that you would get more residue from a cap gun than you would a .22 rifle?

I don't think you can discount the tests unless you actually know what they were, and we don't. The single paragraph which addresses this in the appeal decision is without doubt a summary of umpteen pages of evidence given at trial on the issue. We know that .22's produce GSR, because it was on the victims. We also know that GSR 'leaks' from the breech and ejection ports because of the tests in the link I posted earlier, and that this is the primary source of GSR on a shooter's hands when using a rifle. I accept that the amounts may be less using a .22, but I don't accept that there wouldn't have been any. Had you have had your hands tested after using the gun at the carnival I'm sure GSR would have been found, even if you couldn't see it. We are talking about tiny particles here which would be invisible to the naked eye.

The lab assistants were loading 'similar' cartridges into a magazine - the test was for the handling of the ammunition in that way, so I don't see what difference it makes whether they then attached it to a rifle, or to nothing at all? I'm very sure that if we were to see the scientist's evidence the issue of 'similar' will have been addressed. Rivlin isn't an idiot

[Bridget]

One more thing regarding the carnival guns, I find it hard to believe they would be using the same sort of ammunition as was used at the farm. The size may be the same but the amount of explosive used in the maunfacture is going to be much less I would think.

[bloggs and son]

I am currently at / in Witnan, on urgent business...

Where's Witnan? Do you mean Witham?

[mike tesko]

Where's Witnan? Do you mean Witham?

Yes, sorry...

At police station at the moment meeting somebody...

[Jane]

Yes, sorry...

At police station at the moment meeting somebody...

Shucks!! If I'd known, we could have met for lunch!!!

[bloggs and son]

Shucks!! If I'd known, we could have met for lunch!!!

Yes. I'm only 10 minutes away myself.

[Jane]

Yes. I'm only 10 minutes away myself.

Just as well we didn't. I'd have got fed up with waiting. Hope they haven't kept him there to stop him revealing what he knows!!!

[lookout]

I can see now that the residue which was on Sheila would have been minimal,,,as there were 3 guns in play,,,so no re-loading necessary. For starters,,the rifle that was lying on Sheila's chest wasn't the rifle that was seen on the window-sill,,nor was it the rifle that was downstairs,nor the one that fatally killed her.
One of those rifles was damaged,,,but not the one that was photographed with Sheila and it was devoid of  paint marks. Only one rifle was identified even though the police knew that there had been more than one in use.
The bullet holes in Sheila's neck were made by two different rifles,,containing different bullets,,,as PV19 and PV20 bullets will only fit in their appropriate rifles and aren't interchangeable...There is a difference in thread. Both bullets in Sheila's neck were tested to be different,,,so I doubt that after Sheila shot herself once that she was going to " kindly ask Jeremy if he'd mind finishing her off ",but someone else did,,,and not by the rifle that's shown in her pics. That rifle fires PV20 bullets,,,it was a PV19 bullet that killed Sheila.
The police knew that it was a physical impossibility that the Anschutz rifle was solely responsible for all the murders at WHF but they went to court and swore under oath that one gun only had fired all 25 rounds.

 " the truth,the whole truth,and nothing ( like ) the truth."

 

[Patti]

Do you really think she could have loaded three magazines worth of ammunition, and fired all rounds, without there being any evidence of it?

No Bob I don't. But.

If she fired 23 shots, then washed, that would mean there would have only been two bullets fired, therefore the residue would not have been so prolific.  I am not saying this is what she did, but it is worth considering.  Particles can easily fall from the hand with just a quick shake, or constant movement...Her arm was definitely moved back and forth, and particles could well have fell off when the police moved her arm.  It is common practice now to take swabs of that nature at the scene of crime. 
 
Her night dress only had a visual inspected and the Jury was told that there were no particles on it...This of course is a load of BS.....Without a proper test, no one can be certain that particles were not present...the jury was fooled into believing this.   

The test that was done in the labs does not resemble what might have been.  For instance not one of the labs workers used the same weapon and type of bullet as in the rifle found upon Sheila.  Another point is that neither did the staff put themselves in the same position as Sheila to fire the guns. I suppose they fired them stood up, arm raised in an outward position and shot away from their bodies. 

The other thing is that she had two close shots fired to her body, so she must have had some particles on her somewhere.....reside can travel a few feet or more.

Also, consider the weapon, not all weapons give of particles, all components are different, so it is important to get the test right...IMHO