Lack of ammunition-handling evidence on Sheila's hands

[Bridget]

Stop making excuses Bridget, it is Monday morning...lol  The FS just tested the swabs...

There are many links Bridget. I posted a video link further up...But, I don't like going on USA sites....I's rather go on .org sites....

I will post you some links when I get back from work...must dash already late....

You are seriously suggesting that the lab just tested the swabs without referring to the forms they came with, which detail not only the case they relate to but the date they were taken? Seriously?

Have a good day! 

[mike tesko]

In any event I think the results of the handswab tests were / are incomplete and should not have been admissible because there was no control sample from any of the 25 crime scene bullet cases, or the batch of 29 control bullets found  on the kitchen worktop? Additionally, police did not fingerprint the trigger of the rifle, or take a control swab from the trigger itself, and for this reason alone the handswab results should have been excluded on the basis that they were incomplete and unreliable...

There was nothing reliable against which the results obtained from the hand swabs could be checked and gauged?

[Bridget]

In any event I think the results of the handswab tests were / are incomplete and should not have been admissible because there was no control sample from any of the 25 crime scene bullet cases, or the batch of 29 control bullets found  on the kitchen worktop? Additionally, police did not fingerprint the trigger of the rifle, or take a control swab from the trigger itself, and for this reason alone the handswab results should have been excluded on the basis that they were incomplete and unreliable...

Do you mean the point you made earlier, that the lab assistants loaded different ammunition? I'm not sure if I already asked you this, but if the ammunition the assistants used was not comparable to the WHF ammunition, surely someone would have pointed that out?

[mike tesko]

There was nothing reliable against which the results obtained from the hand swabs could be checked and gauged?

An absence of a control swab taken from the batch of ammunition used in the shootings, renders the results obtained from the hand swabs taken from Sheila Caffell, worthless. Yet those results played a significant part in the prosecutions case designed to show that Sheila had not handled any bullets or loaded them into the gun during a second and third reload...

[mike tesko]

An absence of a control swab taken from the batch of ammunition used in the shootings, renders the results obtained from the hand swabs taken from Sheila Caffell, worthless. Yet those results played a significant part in the prosecutions case designed to show that Sheila had not handled any bullets or loaded them into the gun during a second and third reload...

I do not profess to be an expert in this field, but I know enough to say that any results obtained from incmplete tests is /are worthless, and by implication, totally inadmissible...

Jury were therefore decieved regarding the significance of the hand swab results...

Jeremy Bamber did not receive a fair trial

[Bridget]

Patti, I found this which is written by a working group providing advice to expert witnesses in the US:

http://www.swggsr.org/FINAL%20GUIDE11-29-11.pdf

What are the post shooting time requirements for collection of GSR? Rates of particle loss vary widely with the activity of the subject. Because particles are easily wiped off with the normal things people do with their hands, we expect particles to be gone within 4 to 5 hours after a shooting event.

How long will gunshot residue last on clothing? We know from laboratory tests that GSR on clothing will last considerably longer than on hands, exactly how long is unknown. However, most if not all residue will be removed when the clothing is washed.

How long will gunshot residue last on an object other that hands or clothing? GSR will remain on any object until something removes it.

Now that is a 100 page document and nowhere in it does it say that GSR 'fades' by any means other than by being removed.

[lookout]

I have assumed from the start,,,that because of the lack of residue,,,there were two firing arms in progress,,,which didn't further the need to re-load.

Perhaps the sniffer dog should have been used on the police inside the farmhouse,,,,along with a cadaver dog to ascertain whether Sheila was still alive at the point of contact.

[campion]

  Bridget, Your Post #80, do you consider that Patti means,- the chances of finding GSR fades, owing to contact with the protective plastic and handling of SC's body from the crime scene, via the undertaker's conveyance, to the Mortuary?

[Bridget]

  Bridget, Your Post #80, do you consider that Patti means,- the chances of finding GSR fades, owing to contact with the protective plastic and handling of SC's body from the crime scene, via the undertaker's conveyance, to the Mortuary?

No, I think we've agreed that some could be lost by contact with the bags covering her hands, what we were discussing was whether or not time alone would affect the results when testing swabs a month later.

It's probably a moot point anyway, since I've read that the use of a rifle (as opposed to a hand gun) would reduce the likelihood of GSR getting on the hands of the shooter anyway, which is, I assume, why the appeal decision focuses on lead deposits from reloading rather than GSR anyway.

[Patti]

Patti, I found this which is written by a working group providing advice to expert witnesses in the US:

http://www.swggsr.org/FINAL%20GUIDE11-29-11.pdf

What are the post shooting time requirements for collection of GSR? Rates of particle loss vary widely with the activity of the subject. Because particles are easily wiped off with the normal things people do with their hands, we expect particles to be gone within 4 to 5 hours after a shooting event.

How long will gunshot residue last on clothing? We know from laboratory tests that GSR on clothing will last considerably longer than on hands, exactly how long is unknown. However, most if not all residue will be removed when the clothing is washed.

How long will gunshot residue last on an object other that hands or clothing? GSR will remain on any object until something removes it.

Now that is a 100 page document and nowhere in it does it say that GSR 'fades' by any means other than by being removed.

Bridget, if you look closely at that document, you will see that if someone is in close range of a fired weapon, then residue should test positive.  Sheila was certainly in close range of two fires shots to herself, she also had her hand on the rifle.

Yet, we have the argument that there was no trace of residue on her clothes or hands...Surely this alone needs to be considered and one needs to know why this is possible.

Not all guns give of residue either, but no tests were done on JB'S rifle. If such an experiment is done, then surely it must be done with the same rifle and bullets...in order to prove the outcome.  By doing an experiment on a different weapon, proves nothing, other than that said weapon did produce residue or it didn't....

Reside can fall off, I am not convinced it does not fade with time, temperature, transportation and re-handling...

[campion]

  Thankyou Patti and Bridget for your knowledgeable, and interesting interaction on this GSR topic.  IMHO you are jointly awarded the Kay Scarpetta title, for forensic analysis!!

[Bridget]

Bridget, if you look closely at that document, you will see that if someone is in close range of a fired weapon, then residue should test positive.  Sheila was certainly in close range of two fires shots to herself, she also had her hand on the rifle.

Yet, we have the argument that there was no trace of residue on her clothes or hands...Surely this alone needs to be considered and one needs to know why this is possible.

Not all guns give of residue either, but no tests were done on JB'S rifle. If such an experiment is done, then surely it must be done with the same rifle and bullets...in order to prove the outcome.  By doing an experiment on a different weapon, proves nothing, other than that said weapon did produce residue or it didn't....

Reside can fall off, I am not convinced it does not fade with time, temperature, transportation and re-handling...

Hmm.. What does it take to convince you?

With regard to the residue that should be on Sheila, these were contact, or close contact shots and there were residue marks around both wounds.

Would there be residue on her hand from just touching the rifle? If so, why?

[Bridget]

  Thankyou Patti and Bridget for your knowledgeable, and interesting interaction on this GSR topic.  IMHO you are jointly awarded the Kay Scarpetta title, for forensic analysis!!

thank you. I've a feeling we haven't finished yet!

[JackiePreece]

Campion my money's on Patti a more honest genuine person you couldn't find just looking for the truth

Why people should be on this forum

[Patti]

Hmm.. What does it take to convince you?

With regard to the residue that should be on Sheila, these were contact, or close contact shots and there were residue marks around both wounds.

Would there be residue on her hand from just touching the rifle? If so, why?

Ask yourself why the swabs were rejected and you will have your answer Bridget.  The fact that they were rejected  was that they had arrived with weapons and, there was a risk of contamination.

Yet we have Sheila who had two shots fired into her body and no one scarp of residue found on her......Why? Over to you