The significance of how the logs at the scene were created...

[Roch]

Hi Roch,

Where can I find a copy of Hunter's manuscript?

Here it is Caroline:  http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2441.0.html


Archive link: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2896.0.html

[boheme]

So...

at 7:37am, when the occupants of CA07 were informing the control room (I/R) that "One dead male and one dead female in kitchen", where did CA07 get this information from, and by what means?

The point here is that it is reported from CA07- perhaps they received the message one dead male/one dead female ie the person reporting from inside the farmhouse could not tell if Ralph was male or female (he seemed to have long hair for a male) .... CA07 then reported one dead male and one dead female.... then they found 4 bodies upstairs... in this case Sheila does not have to run upstairs - she is already dead - shot twice by the killer in the upstairs room....

[mike tesko]

The point here is that it is reported from CA07- perhaps they received the message one dead male/one dead female ie the person reporting from inside the farmhouse could not tell if Ralph was male or female (he seemed to have long hair for a male) .... CA07 then reported one dead male and one dead female.... then they found 4 bodies upstairs... in this case Sheila does not have to run upstairs - she is already dead - shot twice by the killer in the upstairs room....

Er...

Once Ralph is toppled over, his pyjama bottoms fell around his ankles, er, er, er, exposing his bottom and genitals, so if the police can't tell the difference between a dead male, and a dead female, by reference to this, then what chance did they ever stand of solving who killed who? Next, at 7:42am a  message is passed for the police surgeon, and coroners officer to be contacted about discovery of two bodies, and by 7:45am Control room (Linda) is contacting DS Davidson (SOC) at his home address, requesting him to come into the office because police are dealing with a incident at WHF involving a murder and a suicide..

How can one dead body, be mistaken as the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, and turn out to be a murder, and a suicide?

[mike tesko]

Er...

Once Ralph is toppled over, his pyjama bottoms fell around his ankles, er, er, er, exposing his bottom and genitals, so if the police can't tell the difference between a dead male, and a dead female, by reference to this, then what chance did they ever stand of solving who killed who? Next, at 7:42am a  message is passed for the police surgeon, and coroners officer to be contacted about discovery of two bodies, and by 7:45am Control room (Linda) is contacting DS Davidson (SOC) at his home address, requesting him to come into the office because police are dealing with a incident at WHF involving a murder and a suicide..

How can one dead body, be mistaken as the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, and turn out to be a murder, and a suicide?

Who told the control room about a murder and a suicide, before 7:45am?

[mike tesko]

You would do well to remember the timing of these (07:45am) events, since by that stage (7:37am) two bodies had already been found upon entry to the kitchen, one dead male, one dead female, a murder and a suicide, and by 8:10am, a further three bodies found upstairs...


What would the police do, if the operation went pearshaped at just after 8:10am?

If Sheila's body vanished from its original position of being found in the kitchen upon entry (7:37am), by 8:15am, and by 8:30am, she was upstairs in the bedroom, and by 9:30am, she had been shot under the chin as a result of a training exercise which went dramatically wrong, thereby delaying SOCO taking control of the scene until 10 O'clock, and a decision taken to write out of the operation the fact that Sheila's body had ever been present in the kitchen, and that the details of the entry into the premises had to be altered to take this decision into account, and re-write the script so that it reads that only one body had been found upon entry, Ralph Bamber, with the other four bodies, June, Sheila, Daniel and Nicholas, found upstairs, you would do the following:-

[Roch]

The extract of ND's COLP interview where he says he was called out to deal with a murder and a suicide but then goes on to express that he assumed this could have meant one body or two bodies:- 

It could not feasibly have meant one body.  Because of Nevill's wounds.  There is no way that anybody witnessing Nevill's terrible wounds could suggest that he might be a suicide.  So the reference to a murder and a suicide given to ND via the control room (and described by ND to COLP) probably refers to two bodies, the second having been regarded by police as being a suicide.

[mike tesko]

You would do well to remember the timing of these (07:45am) events, since by that stage (7:37am) two bodies had already been found upon entry to the kitchen, one dead male, one dead female, a murder and a suicide, and by 8:10am, a further three bodies found upstairs...


What would the police do, if the operation went pearshaped at just after 8:10am?

If Sheila's body vanished from its original position of being found in the kitchen upon entry (7:37am), by 8:15am, and by 8:30am, she was upstairs in the bedroom, and by 9:30am, she had been shot under the chin as a result of a training exercise which went dramatically wrong, thereby delaying SOCO taking control of the scene until 10 O'clock, and a decision taken to write out of the operation the fact that Sheila's body had ever been present in the kitchen, and that the details of the entry into the premises had to be altered to take this decision into account, and re-write the script so that it reads that only one body had been found upon entry, Ralph Bamber, with the other four bodies, June, Sheila, Daniel and Nicholas, found upstairs, you would do the following:-

Perhaps you would consider re-writing the log so that the entry into the premises made no mention of finding two bodies upon entry, or better still you might choose to do the following:-

[Caroline R]

The point here is that it is reported from CA07- perhaps they received the message one dead male/one dead female ie the person reporting from inside the farmhouse could not tell if Ralph was male or female (he seemed to have long hair for a male) .... CA07 then reported one dead male and one dead female.... then they found 4 bodies upstairs... in this case Sheila does not have to run upstairs - she is already dead - shot twice by the killer in the upstairs room....

So where did '3 bodies upstairs' come from then?

[mike tesko]

Perhaps you would consider re-writing the log so that the entry into the premises made no mention of finding two bodies upon entry, or better still you might choose to do the following:-

You would create a new log, where entry into the premises (WHF) did not occur until 7:45am...

[mike tesko]

You would create a new log, where entry into the premises (WHF) did not occur until 7:45am...

And that is what the police did...

Information was recorded to the effect that the raid team did not get into the premises (WHF) until 7:45am...

[Caroline R]

Here it is Caroline:  http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2441.0.html


Archive link: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2896.0.html

Thanks Roch, I've already found something interesting;

"Of Crucial importance is a bloodstain close to the end of the Ansultz barrel near to the foresight.

The distance between the end of the barrel and the position of the bloodstain upon it coincides exactly  with the distance between the two wounds inflicted upon Sheila Caffell’s neck and chin.

Moreover, if the barrel had been positioned so the bloodstain next to the end of the barrel overlaid the non-fatal neck wound so that blood oozing from it contaminated the barrel, it transpires that the position of the fatal shot falls exactly at the point where the end of the barrel would finish.
Additionally, the angle between the neck wound and the chin wound corresponds with the precise angle which the gun must have been held in at the time the fatal chin wound had been inflicted"

[Patti]

Thanks Roch, I've already found something interesting;

"Of Crucial importance is a bloodstain close to the end of the Ansultz barrel near to the foresight.

The distance between the end of the barrel and the position of the bloodstain upon it coincides exactly  with the distance between the two wounds inflicted upon Sheila Caffell’s neck and chin.

Moreover, if the barrel had been positioned so the bloodstain next to the end of the barrel overlaid the non-fatal neck wound so that blood oozing from it contaminated the barrel, it transpires that the position of the fatal shot falls exactly at the point where the end of the barrel would finish.
Additionally, the angle between the neck wound and the chin wound corresponds with the precise angle which the gun must have been held in at the time the fatal chin wound had been inflicted"

Hi Caroline....Do you also think, that when the blood had dried and was teat fired with the silencer attached that the hot gasses blew the blood at the end of the barrel into the baffles?  Is it a possibility? 

[lookout]

So in effect,Caroline,it would appear that it describes the wounds as having been done by the person holding the rifle,in a " self-inflicting " position,,,as opposed to someone inflicting the wounds from any distance.

[Caroline R]

Hi Caroline....Do you also think, that when the blood had dried and was teat fired with the silencer attached that the hot gasses blew the blood at the end of the barrel into the baffles?  Is it a possibility? 

Hi Patti - yes, a distinct possibility!

[Caroline R]

So in effect,Caroline,it would appear that it describes the wounds as having been done by the person holding the rifle,in a " self-inflicting " position,,,as opposed to someone inflicting the wounds from any distance.

I think that is what is being implied but all this being the case, I really don't understand why these issues were not hammered home at the trial.