The significance of how the logs at the scene were created...

[mike tesko]

So...

at 7:37am, when the occupants of CA07 were informing the control room (I/R) that "One dead male and one dead female in kitchen", where did CA07 get this information from, and by what means?

[mike tesko]

So...

at 7:37am, when the occupants of CA07 were informing the control room (I/R) that "One dead male and one dead female in kitchen", where did CA07 get this information from, and by what means?

Who told CA07 to pass that / this message to the incident room...

[mike tesko]

Who told CA07 to pass that / this message to the incident room...

Nobody did, they were privy to information (7:37am) coming from within the farmhouse over the open mike radio system, also available to the senior officers in the forward control point...

At about 7:40am, however, Sernior officers instructed CA07 to contact the incident room and close down the "999" open phone link from inside the kitchen at whf...

[mike tesko]

Nobody did, they were privy to information (7:37am) coming from within the farmhouse over the open mike radio system, also available to the senior officers in the forward control point...

At about 7:40am, however, Sernior officers instructed CA07 to contact the incident room and close down the "999" open phone link from inside the kitchen at whf...

It is facts like these which led Jeremy to believe that Sheila was seen in the kitchen by the police, but that she fled upstairs soon after the raid team entered the farmhouse. He believes that Sheila fled upstairs to the bedroom and shot herself (this is where I disagree with him)...

[mike tesko]

I disagree with Jeremy on this point, because at 8:10am, another message was / is passed to the effect that only three bodies were found upstairs and by that stage, five dead in total, and operation over - if Sheila fled upstairs and shot herself soon after raid team set foot into premises, four bodies would have been found upstairs by 8:10am, not only three...

[mike tesko]

I disagree with Jeremy on this point, because at 8:10am, another message was / is passed to the effect that only three bodies were found upstairs and by that stage, five dead in total, and operation over - if Sheila fled upstairs and shot herself soon after raid team set foot into premises, four bodies would have been found upstairs by 8:10am, not only three...

Not only that, but whereabouts inside the kitchen does Jeremy believe the police saw Sheila's body when they looked through the kitchen window, before entry to the kitchen? They can't have seen her body sat on the wooden chair in front of the door through which the raid team eventually set foot into the kitchen because that location was out of sight from that vantage point, and besides Ralphs body was sat frozen by rigor mortis on that chair in that location. Her body could not have been seen by police looking in through the kitchen window, on the floor by the corner of the aga and the metal coal bucket because when police forced open the internal kitchen door, they pushed and toppled Ralph Bambers body over so that it fell into that position - so where does Jeremy say police saw Sheila's body from the vantage point of the kitchen window...

[mike tesko]

Not only that, but whereabouts inside the kitchen does Jeremy believe the police saw Sheila's body when they looked through the kitchen window, before entry to the kitchen? They can't have seen her body sat on the wooden chair in front of the door through which the raid team eventually set foot into the kitchen because that location was out of sight from that vantage point, and besides Ralphs body was sat frozen by rigor mortis on that chair in that location. Her body could not have been seen by police looking in through the kitchen window, on the floor by the corner of the aga and the metal coal bucket because when police forced open the internal kitchen door, they pushed and toppled Ralph Bambers body over so that it fell into that position - so where does Jeremy say police saw Sheila's body from the vantage point of the kitchen window...

Not only that but to accept without question Jeremys version of events, and by drawing inference from the find / discovery / sight of a single wound upon Sheila's neck by the police surgeon, Dr Craig, and PI "Bob" Miller, at 8:44am, how many times is Jeremy saying Sheila was shot? When did she shoot herself the second time? How long did it take the police to find her body upstairs, if she ran upstairs when the police first started to make thier entry after seeing her body through the kitchen window. You have to take all the evidence from all sources into account, and remember by 8:10am, the operation is declared over by the raid team inside the premises...

[mike tesko]

Not only that but to accept without question Jeremys version of events, and by drawing inference from the find / discovery / sight of a single wound upon Sheila's neck by the police surgeon, Dr Craig, and PI "Bob" Miller, at 8:44am, how many times is Jeremy saying Sheila was shot? When did she shoot herself the second time? How long did it take the police to find her body upstairs, if she ran upstairs when the police first started to make thier entry after seeing her body through the kitchen window. You have to take all the evidence from all sources into account, and remember by 8:10am, the operation is declared over by the raid team inside the premises...

Why the long delay, between 8:10am, when the raid is declared over, and 9am, when the firearms team allegedly leave the scene?

And why all the secrecy involving the training exercise which commenced from 9am, and why SOCO were not permitted to take over control of the scene, until 10 O'clock?

[mike tesko]

If Sheila shot herself twice, there would not be all this mess we are trying to unravel, and SOCO would have taken control of the scene much sooner...

[mike tesko]

If Sheila shot herself twice, there would not be all this mess we are trying to unravel, and SOCO would have taken control of the scene much sooner...

There would be none of the secrecy relating to the training exercise, and inconsistencies in the logs, exhibits, and witness statements...

[Roch]

(1) - Senior officers at forward control point?

(2) - Control room back at HQ?

(3) - Occupants of CA07 who were acting as intermediaries between firearms officers at the scene, and the control room?

Raid team members carried operational open mic radios, the commentary of which could be overheard by, (1) and (3) above. Information was passed back and forth  between the scene and the control room (2), by the occupants of (3)...

The control room (2) also had direct access to what was taking place inside the kitchen, as a result of the open telephone line (Y) patched through from the scene, by the operator using the 999 Emergency system, which was being monitored by staff, and also being recorded on audio tapes...

Mike, in my opinion this is another nail in the coffin for the theory that the anomalies in the logs can be explained away by a  'mistake' such as the well wrote theory provided by Hartley and favoured by Vic / Bridget etc.

Jeremy Bamber discovered that the team had open mics.  I personally cannot see how a teamful of armed police could enter the premises with such comms equipment and fail to rectify a mistake in the recording of bodies, such as the one being suggested via CA07 etc.   Try to imagine them being in the kitchen and not confirming that there was only one body in there - that of a male.  Not cancelling the alleged previous information that there was a female body.  It's codswallop. 

I also note that they did request shut down of the open telephone line, however it is not possible to prove the exact reason for doing so.  If somebody alleges that it's to do with report 1612, someone else will counter allege that it's simply because the police were now on hand and so there was no further need for the open line to continue. 

What does spring to mind is that in Hunter's unpublished manuscript he mentions about the tactical support team being withdrawn and this this is believed to be significant.  Have the defence previously consulted experts in TFG raids?

[Caroline R]

Mike, in my opinion this is another nail in the coffin for the theory that the anomalies in the logs can be explained away by a  'mistake' such as the well wrote theory provided by Hartley and favoured by Vic / Bridget etc.

Jeremy Bamber discovered that the team had open mics.  I personally cannot see how a teamful of armed police could enter the premises with such comms equipment and fail to rectify a mistake in the recording of bodies, such as the one being suggested via CA07 etc.   Try to imagine them being in the kitchen and not confirming that there was only one body in there - that of a male.  Not cancelling the alleged previous information that there was a female body.  It's codswallop. 

I also note that they did request shut down of the open telephone line, however it is not possible to prove the exact reason for doing so.  If somebody alleges that it's to do with report 1612, someone else will counter allege that it's simply because the police were now on hand and so there was no further need for the open line to continue. 

What does spring to mind is that in Hunter's unpublished manuscript he mentions about the tactical support team being withdrawn and this this is believed to be significant.  Have the defence previously consulted experts in TFG raids?

Hi Roch,

Where can I find a copy of Hunter's manuscript?

[Bridget]

Mike, in my opinion this is another nail in the coffin for the theory that the anomalies in the logs can be explained away by a  'mistake' such as the well wrote theory provided by Hartley and favoured by Vic / Bridget etc.

Jeremy Bamber discovered that the team had open mics.  I personally cannot see how a teamful of armed police could enter the premises with such comms equipment and fail to rectify a mistake in the recording of bodies, such as the one being suggested via CA07 etc.   Try to imagine them being in the kitchen and not confirming that there was only one body in there - that of a male.  Not cancelling the alleged previous information that there was a female body.  It's codswallop.  

I also note that they did request shut down of the open telephone line, however it is not possible to prove the exact reason for doing so.  If somebody alleges that it's to do with report 1612, someone else will counter allege that it's simply because the police were now on hand and so there was no further need for the open line to continue. 

What does spring to mind is that in Hunter's unpublished manuscript he mentions about the tactical support team being withdrawn and this this is believed to be significant.  Have the defence previously consulted experts in TFG raids?

They did correct the erroneous information (one female body seen through window) and that is what lead to there being two bodies recorded. They didn't know what was actually being written down and wouldn't have seen a need to confirm the fact that there was only one body because as far as they were concerned, they never said there was more than one.

[Roch]

They did correct the erroneous information (one female body seen through window) and that is what lead to there being two bodies recorded. They didn't know what was actually being written down and wouldn't have seen a need to confirm the fact that there was only one body because as far as they were concerned, they never said there was more than one.

No Bridget, the logs mention nothing about any bodies being seen through the window.  What is recorded in the logs is very clear.  There is pre-entrance period and a post-entrance period.  During the post-entrance period, two bodies are recorded.  The occupants of CA07 are listening in to the open mics of the TFG.  It is not possible in those circs for this mistake to have happened. 

[campion]

  Roch,  IMCO you have clarified the misconceptions. Also, was not the land-line cleared for DCS Harris to communicate with EP HQ?