Author Topic: The Bamber Killings / French Alp Killings - some comparrisons  (Read 13949 times)

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Offline Patti

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Re: The Bamber Killings / French Alp Killings - some comparrisons
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2012, 12:11:PM »

Hi Patti,

Thanks at least for having a go - and I can see why the general commentary goes against any comparison, but it was my highlighted bits that stuck out to me when reading the article

...one gunman

...25 spent bullets

...speculation there was more than one attacker

...single weapon used

...four victims.. shot twice in the head.

...a silencer was probably used

...the fact only one gun was used meant the "cold and calculating" killer had an "extremely high level of training".

Add all the above up and it looks like a single male killer (imo the same as whf) - and I can see why JM believed a mercenary killing at whf - due to the high level of competency needed to kill this way.

Hi Nikos

I have not read the whole story in depth. I am not aware of how many bullet cases were found. I think the press are causing some speculation as to what has happened because no one knows the truth yet...

It certainly comes across as being a hit, but there are still many questions not answered.....

I wondered why there was so much glass on the outside of the vehicle?????????

I like having a go Nickos... :) :) :) :)

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: The Bamber Killings / French Alp Killings - some comparrisons
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2012, 05:06:PM »
Actually my mind flew to the Jeremy incident as well-Jeremy Cartland whom younger readers will have forgotten. There is very little information on the internet about it and what little I have gleaned I have read from the French.

The bare facts are these:John Cartland,60,owner of a language school in Brighton and his son Jeremy,29, a teacher,take a caravan to Spain,and on return pull into a lay-by near Salon-de-Provence France,as it's getting dark and they are both tired.

In the early hours of Sunday 18 March 1973 Jeremy is awoken by "strange savage sounds" emanating from outside the caravan. Jeremy steps out of the caravan,rubbing his eyes and immediately spies a man trying to open the door of their Hillman car. Jeremy at this point is struck on the head from behind and offers no further information. A few minutes later a passing motorist, commercial traveller Frederick Delaune notices the caravan ablaze,Jeremy slumped near this conflagration bleeding from stab wounds,with his father some distance further away with head wounds inflicted with an axe,and stab wounds inflicted on the dead corpse.

 Jeremy's subsequent co-operation with the French authorities as he is allowed to travel back and forth to assist them cost him £20,000 in total. However they believe they have enough evidence to charge Jeremy with his father's death,and on 19 May issue an international warrant for his arrest. On 21 December Jeremy is questioned for 7 and a half hours by Scotland Yard; on 4 January 1974 the Director of Public Prosecutions announced that due to insufficient evidence he would not proceed with the case against him.

There appears to be no motive to the crime;father John has left his £30,000 estate to his housekeeper,57 year old Janet Gibson. Against this the forensic examiners say the stab wounds to both Jeremy and his father were inflicted by a steel knife made in Thiers,France,but only available for purchase in Britain. On 21 May two new witnesses come forward,Raymond Blasco and his wife who state that they were at the scene of the murder and saw two men,one blond the other dark near the caravan,but by this stage the local magistrate has identified Jeremy as the killer and dismisses that evidence. New witnesses in August say they were driving behind a black Citroen which would not let them overtake,and when the Hillman towing the caravan stopped for the night the Citroen pulled up too.

Other theories say the killing was in retaliation for John informing on Maquis members during his work for the Special Operations Executive during the war. We will probably never know the truth of this case,whether Jeremy had a row with his father that night as tempers flared whilst both tired,and in a crime passionel whacked a father past his prime,who like Nevill Bamber had put up a fierce resistance to his attacker,or whether events did unfold as Jeremy related them:one man hit him over the head whilst the other checked the car for valuables or money,where none was to be found in either car or caravan.

As Jeremy Cartland crosses the road from Regency Square and makes his way down to the beach,crunching pebbles underfoot and looking up at the murmation of starlings,evening joggers and children's chatter,one wonders what secrets lay beneath that calm,distinguished exterior as he takes care not to soil his blue pinstripe suit and black brogues,maybe a little worse for wear but a staple of his wardrobe,as he gains inspiration for his latest poetry anthology.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 05:09:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline Nickos

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Re: The Bamber Killings / French Alp Killings - some comparrisons
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2012, 04:24:PM »
Hi Nikos

I have not read the whole story in depth. I am not aware of how many bullet cases were found. I think the press are causing some speculation as to what has happened because no one knows the truth yet...

It certainly comes across as being a hit, but there are still many questions not answered.....

I wondered why there was so much glass on the outside of the vehicle?????????

I like having a go Nickos... :) :) :) :)

I don't think I have put my point across very clearly on this one.

No need to read the whole Alps story in full, and I am not making a detailed comparison between whf and the Alps killings - it is just the highlighted points taken from a Sky article that struck me.

Taking just those highlighted points from the Alps killings (which are similar to the whf killings) the French police have interpreted the murderer as a "cold and calculating" killer (and) had an "extremely high level of training".

I believe the whf murderer also was a "cold and calculating" killer (and) had an "extremely high level of training (or ability with a multi-shot weapon)".

I believe these elements are more applicable to JB, or a hired killer, than SC, and if I had been on the original Jury this, along with the bullet delivery and final clinical multiple head shot kills, would have convinced me the murders were carried out by a cold, efficient and physically strong man.



Reality Check - What evidence is there to free JB? Answers on a very small postcard!

Offline Patti

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Re: The Bamber Killings / French Alp Killings - some comparrisons
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2012, 05:22:PM »
I don't think I have put my point across very clearly on this one.

No need to read the whole Alps story in full, and I am not making a detailed comparison between whf and the Alps killings - it is just the highlighted points taken from a Sky article that struck me.

Taking just those highlighted points from the Alps killings (which are similar to the whf killings) the French police have interpreted the murderer as a "cold and calculating" killer (and) had an "extremely high level of training".

I believe the whf murderer also was a "cold and calculating" killer (and) had an "extremely high level of training (or ability with a multi-shot weapon)".

I believe these elements are more applicable to JB, or a hired killer, than SC, and if I had been on the original Jury this, along with the bullet delivery and final clinical multiple head shot kills, would have convinced me the murders were carried out by a cold, efficient and physically strong man.

Good post Nickos.

Now here comes my but, and I will be completely honest with you.  I can see where you are coming from and don't deny that, but go back to WHF for a moment and looking at the shots made.

You have 5 people dead. All had between 5 and 8 shoots to their bodies. All shots were fired at close range. The only fatal shots were to the head. This speaks volumes to me, because the killer showed control over their victims....To kill outright would have spoiled the killers glory. I believe the killer taunted them....Or it might be a simple matter that the person was not used to firing a gun....

The thing I find strange, is if you look at the gun shot wounds and the angles to the head, they appear close together and at the same angle....as if the gun fired twice....We know the gun had a malfunction, because Fletcher tells us in his statement.....but he says the gun had been damaged through mishandling....but he fails to elaborate on that.....

But, I just don't know.....who that killer was....through lack of concrete evidence... :) :) :)

Offline Patti

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Re: The Bamber Killings / French Alp Killings - some comparrisons
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2012, 05:26:PM »
Just one last thing...If you look at where JB is found...She isn't running towards the door to escape the bedroom, she is going the opposite way, towards her killer.... :-\

Offline susan

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Re: The Bamber Killings / French Alp Killings - some comparrisons
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2012, 05:36:PM »
Hi Patti just reading your post to Nickos.  If the killer was taunting his/her victims this would have not been necessary with the two sleeping little boys.  Maybe two or one shot to the head would have been instant death I feel the person who carried out these horrendous murders was a person totally out of control and not an expert handling a gun. It is all so confusing and in my head I come up with a different theory everyday.

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Re: The Bamber Killings / French Alp Killings - some comparrisons
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2012, 05:42:PM »
Just one last thing...If you look at where JB is found...She isn't running towards the door to escape the bedroom, she is going the opposite way, towards her killer.... :-\

Well we know she staggered around the room onto the other side of the bed after being shot, maybe the killer left the room and then returned, after pursuing Ralph perhaps?  :-\

Offline lookout

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Re: The Bamber Killings / French Alp Killings - some comparrisons
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2012, 05:46:PM »
Well we know she staggered around the room onto the other side of the bed after being shot, maybe the killer left the room and then returned, after pursuing Ralph perhaps?  :-\

Whoever the killer was,Hartley,,it certainly wasn't Jeremy. He didn't have the guts.

Offline Patti

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Re: The Bamber Killings / French Alp Killings - some comparrisons
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2012, 06:01:PM »
Hi Patti just reading your post to Nickos.  If the killer was taunting his/her victims this would have not been necessary with the two sleeping little boys.  Maybe two or one shot to the head would have been instant death I feel the person who carried out these horrendous murders was a person totally out of control and not an expert handling a gun. It is all so confusing and in my head I come up with a different theory everyday.

That is a valid point Susan....and, I am glad you picked up on it...You must have enjoyed your shopping at Tesco's....lol

So, If the taunting did not exist with the little boys, then what have we got? We have a killer who does not know how to use a rifle?  Sorry I am making it difficult.  8) 8) 8) 8)

Offline Patti

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Re: The Bamber Killings / French Alp Killings - some comparrisons
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2012, 06:02:PM »
Well we know she staggered around the room onto the other side of the bed after being shot, maybe the killer left the room and then returned, after pursuing Ralph perhaps?  :-\

Hartley I can't see no trace evidence that she went round the other side of the bed....can you?  :-\

Offline Patti

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Re: The Bamber Killings / French Alp Killings - some comparrisons
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2012, 06:03:PM »
Whoever the killer was,Hartley,,it certainly wasn't Jeremy. He didn't have the guts.

I don't think he did either Lookout, but for me I will never rule out a 3rd party.... :-\ :-\ :)

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Re: The Bamber Killings / French Alp Killings - some comparrisons
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2012, 06:06:PM »
Hartley I can't see no trace evidence that she went round the other side of the bed....can you?  :-\

Yeah, it's in Mcdonnells report, blood dripped on the carpet and beneath where Sheilas body would later be, was tested and found to belong to June.

Offline susan

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Re: The Bamber Killings / French Alp Killings - some comparrisons
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2012, 06:12:PM »
No Patti  you are not making it difficult.  I am of the opinion that the killer was not an expert with a gun but had just a little knowledge on how to use one.  For an experienced gun handler it would not have been necessary to fire the amount of bullets found in each victim to kill them.  It seems the person who fired the shots was just totally out of control and not responsible for her or his actions.  Maybe some taunting was being expressed by the killer and even words could have been shouted but sadly that is something we will never know.  If a third party was involved Patti how did they gain access in and out of the farm.

Offline Patti

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Re: The Bamber Killings / French Alp Killings - some comparrisons
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2012, 06:12:PM »
Yeah, it's in Mcdonnells report, blood dripped on the carpet and beneath where Sheilas body would later be, was tested and found to belong to June.

Where do I find that report Hartley?....I am feeling idle!.  I thought it was a case of not being sure how Sheila got her mothers blood underneath her nightdress. Was on the bottom of her nightie?

Trouble is when I look at the photo's all I can see is spatter....no traces evidence....what i mean is large drops, smudged areas, like on the top of the bed and on the cushions in the kitchens.... :-\ :-\

-Harters-

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