Jeremy Bamber's story - NOTW deal

[lookout]

Hi lookout  I mentioned months ago that maybe Sheila had burned her blood stained clothes in the Aga and now that steve thinks this could be credible for Jeremy to have done this same could have applied to Sheila.  We did discuss as well that Sheila smoked large cigars (no I don't know the brand) but we wondered if it was possible for a lit cigar to make the marks.  What do you think lookout.

Hi Susan,,yes I mentioned cigar burns a few months back,but I think it fell on deaf ears,,or blind eyes in this case. Her cigars were probably Havannas,large ones,not the ladylike cheroots. If there'd been any remains of any in an ash tray,,the police would probably have overlooked it,thinking it may have been Nevilles'. Also,the " unexplained " marks on Nevilles' forearm would have been Sheilas' hard grip outlining her nails. Nobody took any scrapings from underneath her nails as far as I can see,either. Or the broken toe-nail.How did it break,I wonder.? A backlash from the rifle.? We don't know,as nothing was made of it. That was found in the kitchen. One thing for sure,she hadn't stubbed it.! It had been broken right off. You can't sustain anything like that with just walking about.
Sheila could possibly have burned something,but her outdoor clothes were soaking in the buckets

[Roch]

Yes she screamed,but had she done so at White House Farm the twins would have woken up. She screamed at Maida Vale and banged her head and fists against the wall,but never once did she take a kitchen knife and threaten any other person. It would be Nevill on the telephone who would calm her down,or on occasion appear in person,but not once would he consider calling for Jeremy's assistance,as Jeremy was another cause for concern.

How do you know he didn't calm her?  He may have calmed her thrice during the night for all you know.  Yet again, another attempt to impose your specific rationale, upon a desperate and irrational situation unfolding.

[OnceSaid]

Morning OnceSaid  The panic button was located in the kitchen and as far as I'm aware the only one.

Thank you Susan 

[Jane]

Yes she screamed,but had she done so at White House Farm the twins would have woken up. She screamed at Maida Vale and banged her head and fists against the wall,but never once did she take a kitchen knife and threaten any other person. It would be Nevill on the telephone who would calm her down,or on occasion appear in person,but not once would he consider calling for Jeremy's assistance,as Jeremy was another cause for concern.

If they'd become accustomed to hearing screams in the night, it's doubtful that they'd have stirred.

[lookout]

Yes she screamed,but had she done so at White House Farm the twins would have woken up. She screamed at Maida Vale and banged her head and fists against the wall,but never once did she take a kitchen knife and threaten any other person. It would be Nevill on the telephone who would calm her down,or on occasion appear in person,but not once would he consider calling for Jeremy's assistance,as Jeremy was another cause for concern.

Sheila may have screamed at WHF,we don't know,though if she had have done,and ( shock/awe ) swaw her brother murdering the family,,her screams would have wakened the dead and she'd have made an attempt to run out,,or even shoot him dead too.!
In Sheilas' state of mind,,nobody would have got past her I'm afraid,,and to be sure,the assailant would have needed hospital treatment. She would have beaten Jeremy,hands down. You can when you're armed with a rifle.
Jeremys' only crime was not taking enough notice/interest of what was going on within the family. He was too wrapped up in Julie to bother about anyone.

[maggie]

If they'd become accustomed to hearing screams in the night, it's doubtful that they'd have stirred.

True april and also that old farmhouse would have thick stone walls. Would doubt if the twins in their bedroom would hear Sheila screaming downstairs.
We know 'Freddie' feared for his life when Sheila was psychotic in Maida Vale flat.
We dont know if Sheila had threatened anyone with anything leading up to that August night.

[lookout]

True april and also that old farmhouse would have thick stone walls. Would doubt if the twins in their bedroom would hear Sheila screaming downstairs.
We know 'Freddie' feared for his life when Sheila was psychotic in Maida Vale flat.
We dont know if Sheila had threatened anyone with anything leading up to that August night.

Hi Maggie,,we do know that Sheilas' mental health had deteriorated according to Dr Ferguson,when she left St Andrews in the March. To be perfectly honest,I would say with hand on heart,that the doctors were positively worried,,as they didn't know as much then as they do now. For starters,she'd have been sectioned under the Mental Health Act. The things she told Ferguson should have set alarm bells off,,and we know what those were.
 

[OnceSaid]

Yes she screamed,but had she done so at White House Farm the twins would have woken up. She screamed at Maida Vale and banged her head and fists against the wall,but never once did she take a kitchen knife and threaten any other person. It would be Nevill on the telephone who would calm her down,or on occasion appear in person,but not once would he consider calling for Jeremy's assistance,as Jeremy was another cause for concern.

I doubt if anyone had screamed or shouted that the boys would have been awoken by the noise.  This slaughter was not done in silence but yet the children remained asleep and thankfully were asleep when they were killed.

Who is to say that Sheila never once lifted a knife or anything else that could have been used as a weapon, or threatened any other person?  SC was ill, anything is possible IMO.

If SC was brandishing the gun, and unlike other occassions, he was unable to calm her down, it makes sense that he would call Jeremy, as Jeremy was one of the few who really knew what Sheila was like when she had an episode. 

[Steve_uk]

How do you know he didn't calm her?  He may have calmed her thrice during the night for all you know.  Yet again, another attempt to impose your specific rationale, upon a desperate and irrational situation unfolding.

You see I don't accept the Defence's telephone call in the first place,so it's again building one hypothesis on another,if you can put yourself in the shoes of the Prosecution for one tiny moment..

There's just no way that Sheila was the type who would go berserk or go crazy or whatever words you want to describe it with a gun. It was Jeremy who loaded the gun with a magazine don't you see,because he knew that people would say Sheila could never have performed that action,but Jeremy could not predict exactly how much ammunition he would need to kill five people in a rifle whose purpose was to kill vermin.

I don't accept the suggestion that somehow Nevill manages to calm Sheila down,then she kicks off again. It's quite clear from the way the bullet cases are scattered that Nevill is shot on the landing yet manages to make his way down to the kitchen, whoever you think the identity of his assailant is,and in these circumstances everyone's natural thoughts are to telephone the Police. Why wake Jeremy up anyway in the middle of the night when he might after all not even pick up the receiver?

It's not just at the White House Farm end that the Jeremy supporters' scenario breaks down. We have Jeremy calmly flicking through the Yellow Pages for ten minutes,as well as telephoning Julie(we won't go into the exact timing of that now as that represents another headache) as we are supposed to believe his words to the Police: "what's taking you so much time..my father sounded terrified when he called" yet Jeremy retracts this at trial which along with other inconsistencies in his evidence make his version of events incredible and the jury's verdict of beyond reasonable doubt a correct one.

[lookout]

Steve,,if Jeremy had committed the murders,believe you me,he'd have planned his speeches to sound the same whoever he was questioned by. Liars and murderers never lose their thread.They have memories like an elephant,,and that's why Jeremys' story of events changed.Not because he'd committed murder,but because he hadn't.

[Lugg]

Sheila may have screamed at WHF,we don't know,though if she had have done,and ( shock/awe ) swaw her brother murdering the family,,her screams would have wakened the dead and she'd have made an attempt to run out,,or even shoot him dead too.!
In Sheilas' state of mind,,nobody would have got past her I'm afraid,,and to be sure,the assailant would have needed hospital treatment. She would have beaten Jeremy,hands down. You can when you're armed with a rifle.
Jeremys' only crime was not taking enough notice/interest of what was going on within the family. He was too wrapped up in Julie to bother about anyone.

It appears that Sheila didn't scream? If she didn't scream then that would have possibly meant that she was doing the killing perhaps?

[Steve_uk]

Sheila may have screamed at WHF,we don't know,though if she had have done,and ( shock/awe ) swaw her brother murdering the family,,her screams would have wakened the dead and she'd have made an attempt to run out,,or even shoot him dead too.!
In Sheilas' state of mind,,nobody would have got past her I'm afraid,,and to be sure,the assailant would have needed hospital treatment. She would have beaten Jeremy,hands down. You can when you're armed with a rifle.
Jeremys' only crime was not taking enough notice/interest of what was going on within the family. He was too wrapped up in Julie to bother about anyone.

He knew about the terms of Nevill's will alright,and he knew enough to want a new car when he had smashed his old one up,he knew enough of Sheila to tell Doris Foakes "I'm not sharing any of my money with my sister" and he knew enough of June to screw her letter to be opened after her death up into his glove compartment saying to Julie "I'm glad she's dead".

We just don't know how wrapped up in Julie he was. Was he on the rebound from Suzette and was he grief-stricken at her three miscarriages? Was the thought "let's make babies" on his mind every time he took Julie to bed,was this an infantile remark symptomatic of the workings of his mind or was this a side-sweep at a possible infertile Nevill..

My opinion in retrospect is that he used Julie-he used her for sex at Goldsmiths,he used her to access the cannabis market making up some of the income he spent living beyond his means,,he tied her into the murders with the telephone calls and used her as a sounding board,he used her for emotional reassurance as an ersatz mother and like the car he had wrecked when he found no further use for her he dumped her and bought a new model in the form of Anji Greaves.

[maggie]

Steve,,if Jeremy had committed the murders,believe you me,he'd have planned his speeches to sound the same whoever he was questioned by. Liars and murderers never lose their thread.They have memories like an elephant,,and that's why Jeremys' story of events changed.Not because he'd committed murder,but because he hadn't.

I agree lookout, a clear unfaltering story is usually a practiced one. A shocked and traumatised person would struggle with a timetable of events as their brain would be muddled. Surely Im not the only person whos given a statement while shocked only to think later that what I said was wrong and facts needed changing. It can be very confusing.

[campion]

 Lugg, all this cannabis Bamber smokes and he doesn't get the munchies once, no mention of scoffing a packet of chocolate biscuits anywhere !!!!

[Steve_uk]

Steve,,if Jeremy had committed the murders,believe you me,he'd have planned his speeches to sound the same whoever he was questioned by. Liars and murderers never lose their thread.They have memories like an elephant,,and that's why Jeremys' story of events changed.Not because he'd committed murder,but because he hadn't.

No lookout he was an adoptee whose parents provided the love and care of sorts but where he never felt particularly comfortable. True many young people take a year out and travel the world but upon return Jeremy preferred working at a Little Chef on the A12 rather than the career which had been mapped out for him almost from birth.

The psychiatric testing he took in prison suggested that he was in the lowest 10% of ability on one of the tests,yet he knew on which side his bread was buttered and as he told Julie when she asked why he didn't just leave he replied: "I have too much to lose". It was during this time that Jeremy had time to think about planning the murders,whilst outwardly giving the appearance of someone who had settled down to the farming lifestyle,one must never forget that he was ploughing the fields with an ulterior motive,a corn carter with malice aforethought.