Did Sheila Suffer An Attachment Disorder Resulting In Affectionless Psychopathy?

[Jane]

Hi Maggie

Special and lovely for who?  Birth Parents?  Adoptees?  Adoptive Parents?

Are you referring to 'closed' UK adoptions in the so called baby scoop era or the international 'open' adoption of your daughters?

What do you mean by "....April and egap I know not alwYs..."?

Hi, egap. I think our kind Maggie was acknowledging that adoption isn't special and lovely for everybody. I recently heard the heartbreaking story of a couple who adopted a brother and sister, 2 and 4yrs old, who, they were told had come from a difficult background. OK, they'd been warned, but were totally unprepared for the problems that arose. The pressures on them resulted in their marriage falling apart which of course had a devasting effect on the children. It was only then that the full horrors of the childrens' background became revealed and the adopted parents both felt that had they known of it before the adoption, they would have thought twice about the wisdom of what they were doing. Social Services have now become involved on a regular basis and the parents are feeling more supported, but it does seem that they rather took the view that once the children were settled with a stable family, everything would be fine. WHEN will these people take it on board that early memories of pain, fear and hunger can't be wiped from a child's mind.

[maggie]

Hi, egap. I think our kind Maggie was acknowledging that adoption isn't special and lovely for everybody. I recently heard the heartbreaking story of a couple who adopted a brother and sister, 2 and 4yrs old, who, they were told had come from a difficult background. OK, they'd been warned, but were totally unprepared for the problems that arose. The pressures on them resulted in their marriage falling apart which of course had a devasting effect on the children. It was only then that the full horrors of the childrens' background became revealed and the adopted parents both felt that had they known of it before the adoption, they would have thought twice about the wisdom of what they were doing. Social Services have now become involved on a regular basis and the parents are feeling more supported, but it does seem that they rather took the view that once the children were settled with a stable family, everything would be fine. WHEN will these people take it on board that early memories of pain, fear and hunger can't be wiped from a child's mind.

Very true April.  I do understand that adoptions can be difficult even in the best of situations, adopted children have a great deal to come to terms with.  A bad adoption is I'm sure a tragedy for a child. Adoption is always a sensitive
issue, I cannot in fact take my childrens pain away.  I apologise egap if I ever appear insensitive but this works both ways.
issue which deserves respect and understanding. Yes I have two adopted children and I hope I have done my very best ..for them.  There is however always pain for them ie the primal wound and having to come to term with being ..abandoned by their natural.

[maggie]

Very true April.  I do understand that adoptions can be difficult even in the best of situations, adopted children have a great deal to come to terms with.  A bad adoption is I'm sure a tragedy for a child. Adoption is always a sensitive
issue, I cannot in fact take my childrens pain away.  I apologise egap if I ever appear insensitive but this works both ways.
issue which deserves respect and understanding. Yes I have two adopted children and I hope I have done my very best ..for them.  There is however always pain for them ie the primal wound and having to come to term with being ..abandoned by their natural.

Sorry Im on my phone and cant modify my messy post.

[Steve_uk]

Hi Steve_uk

You have an interesting perspective on opposite sex sexual relationships.  You appear to view females as reluctantly submitting themselves to males in some sort of passive way?

I would point out that females do actually have 'normal' sexual needs, wants and desires.  I would also respectfully point out that it is females that are capable of multiple orgasms and not males.  (Who said God was male?  )

I rather think the sexual liberation you refer to is more to do with females controlling their fertility than engaging in wildly promiscuous behaviour.

Oh by the way we, the gals, have missed you/your posts as they add a refreshing twist 

x

Controlling one's fertility for a woman may be a big step forward,though it's not happened in the Philippines or in many parts of Africa. Sheila herself could hardly be described as a woman who controlled her own fertility,and neither can thousands of teenage girls pressured into sex at an early age,or who forget to take their birth control pills and who rely on the relatively recent emergency contraception pill. All of Sheila's friends had luxury flats in a fashionable area of London,they could enter a restaurant and turn heads,yet they suffered the most appalling inner turmoil and insecurity.

I still believe the best relationships involve a long-term commitment of some kind,I am not judgemental about what sex that relationship should be,but all the evidence points to happier people in the long term engaged in these relationships,not to mention any children who also do better in every socio-economic statistics.

[Jane]

Hi Steve_uk

Wow we actually agree on something.  I do tend to agree with your second para.  I wld also add that having worked in a very male dominated environment for 20 plus years, based on my conversations with many males they appear to agree unless of course it was some sort of chat up line  :D

I'm of the opinion that if a western woman wants to control her fertility then she can do so.  Those that have so-called unplanned pregnancies such as Sheila and young girls, usually from low socio-economic groups and broken homes, I believe choose that route usually for all the wrong reasons. The pill is almost 100% effective if taken correctly.  Diarrhoea, sickness and anti-biotics can interfere with absorption and reduce the pills effectiveness in which case additional methods need to be used.  Simple.

Re the luxury flats, turning heads, inner turmoil and insecurity may I ask did you actually ever meet any of Sheila's friends?  The description sounds as though it's straight from Claire Powell's book.  I understand she did meet and interview some of Sheila's friends but this is her perception.  I have no knowledge of Claire Powell and whether or not her judgement can be relied upon. In any event I don't understand the relevance of this?  My view is that Sheila's life was far from glamorous.  I don't wish to sound unkind but as pointed out by April1 I have not seen one photo of Sheila where her clothing could be described as high end quality fashion which I would expect to see if Sheila had the sort of lifestyle you seem to think she had ie part of the jet-set.  Also apart from her modelling assignment to Tokyo I'm unaware of any foreign trips/holidays.  Neither Colin or Sheila had the money for luxuries of any sort save the drug taking which I believe resulted in some sort of unpaid debt.  If you recall June was looking to arrange a holiday for Sheila in Easbourne/Bournemouth - a kind gesture but not exactly exotic.

Contrast the above with JB's pre-prison life and I cannot for the life of me think why he would have been envious of Sheila and/or her lifestyle.

Re the title of the thread and post #1 there are two crucial FACTS why I believe JB is innocent:

1.  June did not suffer depression/mental illness after adopting JB therefore he went from his birth mother to June.  Sheila went from her birth mother to June to unknown caregiver (foster mother ?) back to June.  This I believe caused untold damage to Sheila as evidenced throughout her life: difficulties at school, unplanned pregnancies, heavy user of recreational drugs, married young which lasted only months, difficulty in bonding with her own children, difficulty in finding regular paid work, low self-esteem and mental illness.

2. JB showed no interest in reuniting with his birth family whereas Sheila did.  As I think you know Sheila met with her birth mother only weeks before the murders.

If you ask any psychologist/psychiatrist, and preferably one with experience of adoption and not conflicted by acting for the Bambers in tandem, then I am sure you will find they will agree with my assertions.

Superbly put, egap1

[Steve_uk]

Hi Steve_uk

Wow we actually agree on something.  I do tend to agree with your second para.  I wld also add that having worked in a very male dominated environment for 20 plus years, based on my conversations with many males they appear to agree unless of course it was some sort of chat up line  :D

I'm of the opinion that if a western woman wants to control her fertility then she can do so.  Those that have so-called unplanned pregnancies such as Sheila and young girls, usually from low socio-economic groups and broken homes, I believe choose that route usually for all the wrong reasons. The pill is almost 100% effective if taken correctly.  Diarrhoea, sickness and anti-biotics can interfere with absorption and reduce the pills effectiveness in which case additional methods need to be used.  Simple.

Re the luxury flats, turning heads, inner turmoil and insecurity may I ask did you actually ever meet any of Sheila's friends?  The description sounds as though it's straight from Claire Powell's book.  I understand she did meet and interview some of Sheila's friends but this is her perception.  I have no knowledge of Claire Powell and whether or not her judgement can be relied upon. In any event I don't understand the relevance of this?  My view is that Sheila's life was far from glamorous.  I don't wish to sound unkind but as pointed out by April1 I have not seen one photo of Sheila where her clothing could be described as high end quality fashion which I would expect to see if Sheila had the sort of lifestyle you seem to think she had ie part of the jet-set.  Also apart from her modelling assignment to Tokyo I'm unaware of any foreign trips/holidays.  Neither Colin or Sheila had the money for luxuries of any sort save the drug taking which I believe resulted in some sort of unpaid debt.  If you recall June was looking to arrange a holiday for Sheila in Easbourne/Bournemouth - a kind gesture but not exactly exotic.

Contrast the above with JB's pre-prison life and I cannot for the life of me think why he would have been envious of Sheila and/or her lifestyle.

Re the title of the thread and post #1 there are two crucial FACTS why I believe JB is innocent:

1.  June did not suffer depression/mental illness after adopting JB therefore he went from his birth mother to June.  Sheila went from her birth mother to June to unknown caregiver (foster mother ?) back to June.  This I believe caused untold damage to Sheila as evidenced throughout her life: difficulties at school, unplanned pregnancies, heavy user of recreational drugs, married young which lasted only months, difficulty in bonding with her own children, difficulty in finding regular paid work, low self-esteem and mental illness.

2. JB showed no interest in reuniting with his birth family whereas Sheila did.  As I think you know Sheila met with her birth mother only weeks before the murders.

If you ask any psychologist/psychiatrist, and preferably one with experience of adoption and not conflicted by acting for the Bambers in tandem, then I am sure you will find they will agree with my assertions.

I don’t agree with most of that I’m afraid. I have never said that Sheila herself had a glamorous lifestyle;all that Maida Vale model set were desperately insecure as they scoured London for Mr. Right who would take them away from it all. I’m not sure when Sheila started to take anti-psychotic medication but she was under the charge of Dr. Hugh Ferguson from August 1983,who had treated her mother the previous year so your point 1 is factually inaccurate. As for point 2,I don’t see any relevance whatsoever,as Jeremy was planning to make easy money by doing away with his adoptive family,and in this he succeeded,so why should he feel the need to contact his real parents? As for the bit about the professionals in the mental health industry,well we’ll have to disagree there also.

[lookout]

Very good post,egap1.
 Yes,it's true that if Jeremy craved the high-life and recognition,he would have sought out his birth parents,and I rather feel that he would have been accepted into that circle of opportunities and respectability.
As you said,he chose not to, maybe because it could have been too stifling,or that he preferred the outdoors on the farm,,,which does speak for itself,as Jeremy was quite happy looking to his future as a farmer.
There'd have been every likelihood that had Sheila had the same parentage as Jeremy,that things could have been entirely different. Though this sort of difference can,and does occur from the same blood parents. It's just that Sheilas' early life got on to a bumpy start.
Poor girl probably didn't ever know what she wanted to do in life.She was never given that chance,as all children are different. Whereas,Jeremy was just happy to sail along.

I often wondered what Sheilas' birth mother thought of Sheila when they met,,and did the mother specifically fly from Canada to see her.? It would have been interesting to have found out what the mothers views of Sheila were,and why the sudden departure.

[maggie]

Sorry egap if I have offended you. When I speak about the Bambers adoption I go on the fact that we dont know much and most is hearsay.  I am well aware of the dreadful difficulties many fostered and adpted children suffer.  Actually I wish I had never mentioned the fact I adopted my children.
My adoption is my own business and I dont want to discuss it or for it to be discussed on the open forum. No offence intended.

[Steve_uk]

Very good post,egap1.
 Yes,it's true that if Jeremy craved the high-life and recognition,he would have sought out his birth parents,and I rather feel that he would have been accepted into that circle of opportunities and respectability.
As you said,he chose not to, maybe because it could have been too stifling,or that he preferred the outdoors on the farm,,,which does speak for itself,as Jeremy was quite happy looking to his future as a farmer.
There'd have been every likelihood that had Sheila had the same parentage as Jeremy,that things could have been entirely different. Though this sort of difference can,and does occur from the same blood parents. It's just that Sheilas' early life got on to a bumpy start.
Poor girl probably didn't ever know what she wanted to do in life.She was never given that chance,as all children are different. Whereas,Jeremy was just happy to sail along.

I often wondered what Sheilas' birth mother thought of Sheila when they met,,and did the mother specifically fly from Canada to see her.? It would have been interesting to have found out what the mothers views of Sheila were,and why the sudden departure.

Jeremy was not "just happy to sail along". He murdered his entire family in cold blood in order to be sole beneficiary of his parents' inheritance. He detested the farming lifestyle and endured it only so long as he had to to avert suspicion from his wicked scheme of doing away with three generations of the same family in the space of a few minutes.

Sheila's natural mother flew into Heathrow from Canada and she was everything Sheila expected her to be,beautiful and affectionate. Both were crying and hugging as they met for the first time since Sheila was an 8 week-old baby. Sheila's wish was that she maintained contact with her after such a long period of absence in her life and nothing I have read suggests that the mother would have forbade this,otherwise why did she agree to meet her in the first place? This also backs up Dr. Hugh Ferguson's statement that Sheila was not at risk of suicide because she enjoyed life too much.

[Steve_uk]

Hi Steve_uk

June suffered depression in 1959 as a result of adopting Sheila.  This depression required ect as an in-patient.  Check out Dr F's wit stats.

But that's not what you said,which I have already replied to in #256. June had another bout of depression in 1982 and was treated by Dr. Hugh Ferguson who also saw Sheila the following year.

[lookout]

Jeremy was not "just happy to sail along". He murdered his entire family in cold blood in order to be sole beneficiary of his parents' inheritance. He detested the farming lifestyle and endured it only so long as he had to to avert suspicion from his wicked scheme of doing away with three generations of the same family in the space of a few minutes.

Sheila's natural mother flew into Heathrow from Canada and she was everything Sheila expected her to be,beautiful and affectionate. Both were crying and hugging as they met for the first time since Sheila was an 8 week-old baby. Sheila's wish was that she maintained contact with her after such a long period of absence in her life and nothing I have read suggests that the mother would have forbade this,otherwise why did she agree to meet her in the first place? This also backs up Dr. Hugh Ferguson's statement that Sheila was not at risk of suicide because she enjoyed life too much.

Not the " inheritance " chestnut again.   Though Jeremy was no scholar,he was still intelligent enough to realise that if he'd committed those murders and was found out,,that he'd have to forfeit any inheritance that came his way,on conviction. So therefore he wasn't going to jeopardise his future in any way.

Would you actually face Jeremy and accuse him.?
I've asked you this before.Where is the concrete evidence ( I'm not talking hearsay,nor he said she said ) I mean actual evidence,fingerprints,blood,anything that indicates that Jeremy was the murderer.

[Steve_uk]

Not the " inheritance " chestnut again.   Though Jeremy was no scholar,he was still intelligent enough to realise that if he'd committed those murders and was found out,,that he'd have to forfeit any inheritance that came his way,on conviction. So therefore he wasn't going to jeopardise his future in any way.

Would you actually face Jeremy and accuse him.?
I've asked you this before.Where is the concrete evidence ( I'm not talking hearsay,nor he said she said ) I mean actual evidence,fingerprints,blood,anything that indicates that Jeremy was the murderer.

Well that's why he thought he'd committed the perfect murder,this thought was reinforced by DCI Edward Taff Jones' lacklustre interview technique as he was initially interviewed as a suspect in the case,and Jeremy can't confess now as he is in prison in fear of his life.

The point about the inheritance is that he like the Prodigal Son wanted his inheritance now. He said to Liz Rimington in a bar one night:"It's important to have money when you're young". He rejected the staid values and existence of his parents who had worked hard over many years in favour of the get-rich-quick mentality of the 1980s,and in his case that meant doing away with his family,as Sheila's debts and the twins' forthcoming school fees would only eat into his inheritance.

[Steve_uk]

Hi Steve_uk

Yes it is.

No you said June did not suffer any mental illness or depression after Jeremy was adopted. This was in the second half of 1961 and I've just told you June had to be treated for depression in 1982 under Dr. Hugh Ferguson.

I don't mind people getting things wrong on this site as everyone is wont to do in the heat of the moment,but to continue protestations when in #256 I have dealt with what you originally wrote is perverse.

[maggie]

Hi Maggie

I would remind you of your first pm to me when you stated that you were happy for me to use your experience of adoption in any of my posts.  Check back.

If I did maybe I was niave about forums egap. I have changed my mind because I cant help but find the whole subject very difficult to be discussed in public in this way.
 May I change my mind please, it hits me quite personally as Im sure some of it does you.  Thanks maggie x

[lookout]

Well that's why he thought he'd committed the perfect murder,this thought was reinforced by DCI Edward Taff Jones' lacklustre interview technique as he was initially interviewed as a suspect in the case,and Jeremy can't confess now as he is in prison in fear of his life.

The point about the inheritance is that he like the Prodigal Son wanted his inheritance now. He said to Liz Rimington in a bar one night:"It's important to have money when you're young". He rejected the staid values and existence of his parents who had worked hard over many years in favour of the get-rich-quick mentality of the 1980s,and in his case that meant doing away with his family,as Sheila's debts and the twins' forthcoming school fees would only eat into his inheritance.

Sorry Steve,but I'm waiting for this concrete evidence from you for these mass murders,other than hearsay,etc etc.