First light question by Campion

[grahameb]

I think that this question deserves to be looked at more closely as there are questions which to this day remain unanswered.
Campion asks:

Can somebody please kindly explain the missing two hours of daylight?
 Daybreak in the UK in early August, in 1985, was approx. 5.30am . According to EP, the Prosecution, and JB's Defence, daybreak at WHF was at 7.30am, when it was claimed it would be light enough for the TFU under Adams, for the back kitchen door, to be breached by Woodcock, with his sledgehammer. We must bear in mind that Collins had seen a female through the window of the den/scullery.
  The question here is :-  At what time was this entry effected ?  Was it EP time, or was it BST ?

[grahameb]

Question one: Why did not Judge Drake not mention why there was such a long delay from first light and the entry of the raid team? When the police got there (and this can be proven because we have just reached that vital yine of year again and found that it was indeed light at 4am that morning) it was daylight and nothing was in complete darkness.
This in itself opens the way to other questions, such as when the police officer looked in the window he saw clearly a "female" body and a "male" body. Somehow his statement has been morphed into just "one" "male" body.

The same thing happened remember when the raid team actually broke into the premesis, when was it? 8am? The found (remember it was full daylight by then) one dead "female" body AND one dead "male" body. These again were mysteriously morphed into jusy "one" dead "male" body.

Now one can I suppose, at a miraculous stretch of the imagination and a crosseyed squint forgive such "two" mistakes. But then we have the further commentary over the blower, "Three dead upstairs". Which again was transformed into one dead male downstairs and four dead upstairs.

All this remember the raid team were not fumbling around in the dark as they are often portrayed as doing in the various documentaries to which we have been subjected. But in plain bright daylight.

[lookout]

It is very bad when you look at it that way,Grahame. A mass murder and they could neither count,,nor tell if it was daylight.
The police must have been absolutely sure that someone was alive inside that farmhouse,or they wouldn't have ordered the raid team. They only do that when it's a certainty. So who do they think they're kidding.?

[Patti]

Question one: Why did not Judge Drake not mention why there was such a long delay from first light and the entry of the raid team? When the police got there (and this can be proven because we have just reached that vital yine of year again and found that it was indeed light at 4am that morning) it was daylight and nothing was in complete darkness.
This in itself opens the way to other questions, such as when the police officer looked in the window he saw clearly a "female" body and a "male" body. Somehow his statement has been morphed into just "one" "male" body.

The same thing happened remember when the raid team actually broke into the premesis, when was it? 8am? The found (remember it was full daylight by then) one dead "female" body AND one dead "male" body. These again were mysteriously morphed into jusy "one" dead "male" body.

Now one can I suppose, at a miraculous stretch of the imagination and a crosseyed squint forgive such "two" mistakes. But then we have the further commentary over the blower, "Three dead upstairs". Which again was transformed into one dead male downstairs and four dead upstairs.

All this remember the raid team were not fumbling around in the dark as they are often portrayed as doing in the various documentaries to which we have been subjected. But in plain bright daylight.

Excellent post Grahame and some good points that should have been raised.. I am not sure if it is daylight at 4am...I would have thought it was likely that by 5am it would have been good daylight.  How one can make mistake after mistake...But your point about 3 dead upstairs....certainly does raise questions....having said there was two dead downstairs.....

If Sheila was downstairs, then she might not have even been shot.....as is suggested. 

[susan]

Hi lookout it is unbelievable that this can happen in Britain I thought our Justice system was better than that.  If it was'ent so serious it would be one big joke.

[Patti]

It is very bad when you look at it that way,Grahame. A mass murder and they could neither count,,nor tell if it was daylight.
The police must have been absolutely sure that someone was alive inside that farmhouse,or they wouldn't have ordered the raid team. They only do that when it's a certainty. So who do they think they're kidding.?

Hi Lookout, Grahame raises some points....Hope you are OK...Looks like we are in for a storm, its gone a bit dark over here...sandbags at the step...lolol 

[grahameb]

Excellent post Grahame and some good points that should have been raised.. I am not sure if it is daylight at 4am...I would have thought it was likely that by 5am it would have been good daylight.  How one can make mistake after mistake...But your point about 3 dead upstairs....certainly does raise questions....having said there was two dead downstairs.....

If Sheila was downstairs, then she might not have even been shot.....as is suggested. 

I can assure you Patti that yesterday it was getting light at 4am and as you know yesterday was the anniversary of this tragic event.

[grahameb]

Excellent post Grahame and some good points that should have been raised.. I am not sure if it is daylight at 4am...I would have thought it was likely that by 5am it would have been good daylight.  How one can make mistake after mistake...But your point about 3 dead upstairs....certainly does raise questions....having said there was two dead downstairs.....

If Sheila was downstairs, then she might not have even been shot.....as is suggested. 

This was one of the things I wanted to post, but that was the day of the trolls and I would have been mocked. We must not forget that the pathologist stated clearly that even with such a gunshot wound to her neck Sheila may have been able to get up and walk around.
But the opposition denies that. Strange how they on the one hand use the pathologists report to prove their points. But denigrate his opinion as stupid when it does not agree with their views.

[lookout]

Hi Lookout, Grahame raises some points....Hope you are OK...Looks like we are in for a storm, its gone a bit dark over here...sandbags at the step...lolol 

Hi Patti and Susan.      Grahame does raise some good points,most of which are worth thinking about.
Fabulous day here,with wall to wall sunshine,and the same tomorrow.
I am well,as I hope you both are.

[Patti]

I can assure you Patti that yesterday it was getting light at 4am and as you know yesterday was the anniversary of this tragic event.

I believe you Grahame. I don't rise till about 5:45 at the earliest and it is light then. If Collins had looked through the window and said there was a female, then it was a female....How can information deem to be incorrect in court, yet all the rest of the information on the statement be correct?

If it was light, then what was the delay? I'm sure it didn't take Jeremy 3 hours or more to write a plan of the home he was brought up it...Once the police got the plan, it still wouldn't take 2 to 3 hours to execute surely?  What did they do for all that time? It was clear the a woman was seen in the kitchen, then they say, it was a mistake, it was Nevill....Did they change things to suit? Then you are correct in saying that they reported 3 dead upstairs...where on earth did that come from? Something is not right! 

[Patti]

This was one of the things I wanted to post, but that was the day of the trolls and I would have been mocked. We must not forget that the pathologist stated clearly that even with such a gunshot wound to her neck Sheila may have been able to get up and walk around.
But the opposition denies that. Strange how they on the one hand use the pathologists report to prove their points. But denigrate his opinion as stupid when it does not agree with their views.

Hi Grahame. She could have been alive and well when she was seen in the kitchen.

I don't think she walked about when she was shot the first time. The blood would have flowed downwards and she would have had blood on her nightie. I think she was either sat or stood up leaning on the bed when she received the first shot. She then brought her arm up to her neck, hence the vertical flows of blood on it. She may have even passed out onto the floor with her head leaning to the bed side cabinet...slightly on her right hand side. When she woke she then leaned forward still propped up on her right side, then shot again, this flinging her back into the position she was found....It's difficult for she has been moved. I also think the police only showed the photo's they wanted the court to see and withheld the others.....

[grahameb]

I believe you Grahame. I don't rise till about 5:45 at the earliest and it is light then. If Collins had looked through the window and said there was a female, then it was a female....How can information deem to be incorrect in court, yet all the rest of the information on the statement be correct?

If it was light, then what was the delay? I'm sure it didn't take Jeremy 3 hours or more to write a plan of the home he was brought up it...Once the police got the plan, it still wouldn't take 2 to 3 hours to execute surely?  What did they do for all that time? It was clear the a woman was seen in the kitchen, then they say, it was a mistake, it was Nevill....Did they change things to suit? Then you are correct in saying that they reported 3 dead upstairs...where on earth did that come from? Something is not right! 

Because the police "always" sit around together to make sure their notes tally. If they didn't to this there is every chance that they would not secure a conviction. This COULD be the reason why you have some original notebooks go missing and for a few corrections. If the police statements do not tally and they said different things in court then the barristers could use that kind of thing and possibly get their client off.
The same can be said of the many meetings with the police of Julie Mugford. It was soley to get her story straight. I know for a fact they do this kind of thing and it is logical that they do do it. I don't know why people are so naive about this? The reason for all this "manipulation" of statements is for one reason alone. To get the best chance of a conviction.

[grahameb]

Hi Grahame. She could have been alive and well when she was seen in the kitchen.

I don't think she walked about when she was shot the first time. The blood would have flowed downwards and she would have had blood on her nightie. I think she was either sat or stood up leaning on the bed when she received the first shot. She then brought her arm up to her neck, hence the vertical flows of blood on it. She may have even passed out onto the floor with her head leaning to the bed side cabinet...slightly on her right hand side. When she woke she then leaned forward still propped up on her right side, then shot again, this flinging her back into the position she was found....It's difficult for she has been moved. I also think the police only showed the photo's they wanted the court to see and withheld the others.....

Then again we don't really know do we. Things rarely happen how we thing they should happen do they?

[grahameb]

Last night I was unwell for some reason. Might be something to do with the hole they drilled through my abdomen in order to pass this gigantic pipe through? However it turned out I didn't sleep a wink. I watched dawn arrive at around 5am today. By 6am I was able to see all things clearly as it was broad daylight. 3 questions came into my mind as I was looking at the first light of the morning.

(1) Why did it take so long for the police to break into the cottage? as it was broad daylight on that day in 1985 on the 7th of August. Why then did they only break in two and a half hours later?
I understand that in hostage situations and only when police have been in conversation with people in that situation do they wait a long time, in order to negotiate with the hostage takers.
But apparently according to some they were not in contact with anyone inside the house, for the loud hailer met with "no response". So what held them up if there was no response. Two and a half hours seems a very long time to me? For there might have been a chance that someone may have been alive and so much delay would have put them in mortal danger.

(2) I could see all things clearly, even the windows of the house across the way. Why then all this confusion about a male person being confuse with a "trick of light"? The moon would not have shone into that window thus creating a trick of light becausew it was bright daylight. Remember we have always been given the impression by various documentaries that it was the middle of the night when they peared into the windows. Again if it was Bamber who Bewes claimed saw the "trick of light" why would he report a "male" image and not a female image if he really wanted to frame his sister? Well just one more observation.

(3) Why were all the curtains OPEN? Surely when folk go to bed they by habit close all the curtains in their house. So why were all their curtains open?

So what have we? We have open curtains. Crystal clear vision for all those surrounding the house. Trained officers on scene. But what do we hear all the time? Dunno if it was a man or woman or man and woman we saw through the window But now we're all sure it was just one male body. What an odd mistake to make in such broad daylight and amidst perfect conditions. No curtains to obscue their view, the sun had risen and was burning their eyeballs out as my father used to say when he got us up at the crack of dawn. I wonder what the thought of forum members are?

[maggie]

Last night I was unwell for some reason. Might be something to do with the hole they drilled through my abdomen in order to pass this gigantic pipe through? However it turned out I didn't sleep a wink. I watched dawn arrive at around 5am today. By 6am I was able to see all things clearly as it was broad daylight. 3 questions came into my mind as I was looking at the first light of the morning.

(1) Why did it take so long for the police to break into the cottage? as it was broad daylight on that day in 1985 on the 7th of August. Why then did they only break in two and a half hours later?
I understand that in hostage situations and only when police have been in conversation with people in that situation do they wait a long time, in order to negotiate with the hostage takers.
But apparently according to some they were not in contact with anyone inside the house, for the loud hailer met with "no response". So what held them up if there was no response. Two and a half hours seems a very long time to me? For there might have been a chance that someone may have been alive and so much delay would have put them in mortal danger.

(2) I could see all things clearly, even the windows of the house across the way. Why then all this confusion about a male person being confuse with a "trick of light"? The moon would not have shone into that window thus creating a trick of light becausew it was bright daylight. Remember we have always been given the impression by various documentaries that it was the middle of the night when they peared into the windows. Again if it was Bamber who Bewes claimed saw the "trick of light" why would he report a "male" image and not a female image if he really wanted to frame his sister? Well just one more observation.

(3) Why were all the curtains OPEN? Surely when folk go to bed they by habit close all the curtains in their house. So why were all their curtains open?

So what have we? We have open curtains. Crystal clear vision for all those surrounding the house. Trained officers on scene. But what do we hear all the time? Dunno if it was a man or woman or man and woman we saw through the window But now we're all sure it was just one male body. What an odd mistake to make in such broad daylight and amidst perfect conditions. No curtains to obscue their view, the sun had risen and was burning their eyeballs out as my father used to say when he got us up at the crack of dawn. I wonder what the thought of forum members are?

Grahame, this question has bothered me also.  I could neveer understand why  there was such a long delay in breaking into the farmhouse.  Once the raid team and armed officers were in position you would imagine the main concern would be to get in there and see what had happened and if anyone was in need of help.  It seems crazy that thy then decided to wait until it was light, especially when we know it was already light. 

The police arrived at the farmhouse at about 3.45, it took them 2 hours before the raid team were contacted and then another 2 hours before they broke into the house....why, what on earth were they doing all that time.  Why did they send Jeremy away to make a phone call to Julie at 5.30 to get him out of the way while they broke into the house, when in fact they didn't even contact the raid team untill 5.45.  Makes you wonder if for some reason they had a change of plan somewhere around 5.30 and 5.45 maybe due to evidence of someone alive in the house?