Author Topic: Jeremy's Alibi...  (Read 65441 times)

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Offline susan

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Re: Jeremy's Alibi...
« Reply #165 on: August 07, 2012, 07:31:PM »
Maggie  don't forget to tell steve Jeremy did not have a wet suit on under all his teashirts and jumpers.

Offline lookout

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Re: Jeremy's Alibi...
« Reply #166 on: August 07, 2012, 10:12:PM »
The problem with all these threads here about Sheila and they are legion since the last time I looked is that's it's all speculation-it's one hypothesis based upon another,whereas we have the fact which can be verified that Jeremy telephoned Julie three times within the space of several hours from the Tuesday evening until the morning of the murders. Why is Jeremy doing this if he is so under the control of Julie? Jeremy was a playboy,he was a boaster,he lived for kicks,he was a sociopath,he was unpopular at public school,in prison and just about everywhere else as far as I can make out. Maybe he had a trait in him that made him attractive to Julie,whom it seems to me had a bit of that side to her as well,but to my mind the thought process which had germinated in Jeremy's mind(and let's not forget Jeremy's mind when it is all too facile to talk about Sheila's)and taken form in all seriousness from the Winter of 1984 is well-documented in Julie's evidence and it is damning testimony.



Julie knows damn well that Jeremy didn't murder anyone. That's why she took off because it had gone further than she'd anticipated. She was full of malice at the time of their split,,,though prior to that,,it didn't stop her " from sleeping with a murderer "!
If she had thought for one minute that Jeremy had murdered,,,,she'd have shouted it from the highest building,,,why didn't she just come out with it.? Instead of digging the dirt in fits and starts.  Because she,,along with the  relatives,, were only too happy to see the back of Jeremy,,like Sheila,,he was in their way.   How utterly despicable. I bet Jeremy has now learned that there are some horrible individuals around,,but my bet is,that he's not the type to hold grudges,even with what's happened for the past nearly 27 years.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Jeremy's Alibi...
« Reply #167 on: August 07, 2012, 10:53:PM »


Julie knows damn well that Jeremy didn't murder anyone. That's why she took off because it had gone further than she'd anticipated. She was full of malice at the time of their split,,,though prior to that,,it didn't stop her " from sleeping with a murderer "!
If she had thought for one minute that Jeremy had murdered,,,,she'd have shouted it from the highest building,,,why didn't she just come out with it.? Instead of digging the dirt in fits and starts.  Because she,,along with the  relatives,, were only too happy to see the back of Jeremy,,like Sheila,,he was in their way.   How utterly despicable. I bet Jeremy has now learned that there are some horrible individuals around,,but my bet is,that he's not the type to hold grudges,even with what's happened for the past nearly 27 years.

No Jeremy used Julie;he used her for sex,he used her as an excuse to have a ladies' bicycle at Goldhanger,and he used her as a confidant,which was his undoing. Of course he may have had relationships with women in the past but he didn't understand their psychology unlike Brett who sensed what Julie was after when after the murders he proposed a toast to "Jeremy and his future bride". Jeremy had realized for several months that he didn't want to marry Julie;he felt awkward with her in the company of his parents possibly because she was not of their social class,and like a servant he paid her off with £400 and thought that he could keep her sweet in the future with his money and the threat of her being an accessory to murder.

mertol22

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Re: Jeremy's Alibi...
« Reply #168 on: August 07, 2012, 10:58:PM »
There are no rules then or now jeremy was free to end any relationship at any time , JM turned very sour upon him doing so, it was the ordeal of being dumped that changed her nothing less i guess for jeremy it was natural after all they had no children no ties.

Offline maggie

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Re: Jeremy's Alibi...
« Reply #169 on: August 07, 2012, 11:03:PM »
No Jeremy used Julie;he used her for sex,he used her as an excuse to have a ladies' bicycle at Goldhanger,and he used her as a confidant,which was his undoing. Of course he may have had relationships with women in the past but he didn't understand their psychology unlike Brett who sensed what Julie was after when after the murders he proposed a toast to "Jeremy and his future bride". Jeremy had realized for several months that he didn't want to marry Julie;he felt awkward with her in the company of his parents possibly because she was not of their social class,and like a servant he paid her off with £400 and thought that he could keep her sweet in the future with his money aknd the threat of her being an accessory to murder.
Steve, I really cannot believe you are serious!!   How do you know all these intimate details of Jeremy Bamber are you psychic? 

mertol22

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Re: Jeremy's Alibi...
« Reply #170 on: August 07, 2012, 11:10:PM »
Steve, I really cannot believe you are serious!!   How do you know all these intimate details of Jeremy Bamber are you psychic?
Russell Grant could be not required soon, he might end up like david van day of then dollar selling burgers at the seaside pier assuming he has not eaten them all first like wimpy in popeye.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Jeremy's Alibi...
« Reply #171 on: August 07, 2012, 11:15:PM »
There are no rules then or now jeremy was free to end any relationship at any time , JM turned very sour upon him doing so, it was the ordeal of being dumped that changed her nothing less i guess for jeremy it was natural after all they had no children no ties.

I'm not sure dumped is the right word;Julie quite naturally asked Jeremy if he loved her to which he replied honestly "I don't know". It is possible for young men like Jeremy Bamber,even the most promiscuous ones,to settle down and become family-oriented;maybe this would have happened with Suzette Ford but for the miscarriages. Julie knew what Jeremy was like at that stage as he had bedded one of her best friends. Maybe it was the sex,maybe it was the material things he could offer her,maybe she was in love. Julie had adapted to the harsh reality of life in 1980s Britain and career-wise things were going swimmingly. Her future life would attest to the inherent goodness in Julie,which had Jeremy not been from such a snotty background he would have recognized and made an honest woman of her.

Offline maggie

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Re: Jeremy's Alibi...
« Reply #172 on: August 07, 2012, 11:29:PM »
I'm not sure dumped is the right word;Julie quite naturally asked Jeremy if he loved her to which he replied honestly "I don't know". It is possible for young men like Jeremy Bamber,even the most promiscuous ones,to settle down and become family-oriented;maybe this would have happened with Suzette Ford but for the miscarriages. Julie knew what Jeremy was like at that stage as he had bedded one of her best friends. Maybe it was the sex,maybe it was the material things he could offer her,maybe she was in love. Julie had adapted to the harsh reality of life in 1980s Britain and career-wise things were going swimmingly. Her future life would attest to the inherent goodness in Julie,which had Jeremy not been from such a snotty background he would have recognized and made an honest woman of her.
Steve have you been drinking....or..you have to be taking the p***.

mertol22

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Re: Jeremy's Alibi...
« Reply #173 on: August 07, 2012, 11:51:PM »
I'm not sure dumped is the right word;Julie quite naturally asked Jeremy if he loved her to which he replied honestly "I don't know". It is possible for young men like Jeremy Bamber,even the most promiscuous ones,to settle down and become family-oriented;maybe this would have happened with Suzette Ford but for the miscarriages. Julie knew what Jeremy was like at that stage as he had bedded one of her best friends. Maybe it was the sex,maybe it was the material things he could offer her,maybe she was in love. Julie had adapted to the harsh reality of life in 1980s Britain and career-wise things were going swimmingly. Her future life would attest to the inherent goodness in Julie,which had Jeremy not been from such a snotty background he would have recognized and made an honest woman of her.
Harsh reality of life in 80s Britain, i dont see what that has to do with JM  , jeremy had no control of his upbringing  be that poor or wealthy.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Jeremy's Alibi...
« Reply #174 on: August 08, 2012, 12:35:AM »
Julie Mugford was not out for all she could get. She first met Jeremy at a London bar in November 1983 where they were both working and they felt a mutual attraction. It wasn't until a few months later that she realized the farming connection,and at that time Jeremy didn't even have the cottage at Goldhanger. Here is Jeremy back from his working holiday in New Zealand,not wanting to enter the farming way of life,feeling his way around maybe at a bit of a loss,whereupon he meets Julie.

Julie would stay at the cottage in Goldhanger during the holidays and it was then that she would come to meet June Bamber. Again the atmosphere would have been tense whenever June called,sometimes with Sheila and the twins but mostly alone. Again Julie sensed June's disapproval of her relationship with Jeremy and June made it clear that biblically they were living in sin together and that Julie was a harlot. June's hypocrisy is manifested because Sheila is not good enough to marry her son,a view she would have imparted to Jeremy,but again Julie is not in this relationship for short-term gain as she rejects June's offer of buying them a flat if they would leave the village and thereby stop the rumours flowing at the Queen's Head,which were damaging to Ralph's status as the local magistrate.

Jeremy had a strange view of relationships which he had learnt from his parents having employed farm staff: people were used for what they could offer and in return they received payment. There was no emotion involved and Jeremy accepted this as normal;when he one time visited Julie's relations he couldn't understand the tactile nature and the feeling of benevolence in the family was quite alien to him. It was this feeling of warmth and loyalty which kept him in the relationship with an older woman,Suzette Ford for a number of years.

Julie was also learning fast in Thatcherite Britain;the lesson that money talks. Why,she inquired,did Jeremy not just cut loose,leave his family behind and move on? Because,retorted Jeremy,he had too much to lose. It was in this atmosphere that Julie became cocooned,and it is one explanation that inured her to Jeremy's unpleasant and cruel streak.

At the turn of the year 1985 Jeremy had been harbouring thoughts about harming his family. The farming lifestyle didn't suit,Sheila was living it up in London whilst the agricultural life was hard physical labour,June was unreliable and might easily change her will and leave money to the Church. Jeremy was a disappointment to Ralph who wanted an heir to take over the managerial responsibility the farm as a business entailed. Jeremy wasn't a natural leader,he didn't inspire confidence around him,and Jeremy was restless. If only his family would disappear Jeremy could receive his inheritance and move on. Spurred by a chance conversation with Colin Caffell that the twins were "a millstone round his neck" Jeremy began to conceive ways that his family might disappear. He made hints to Julie,who busy with the fatigue of teaching practice and giving of herself in a way not demanded by other jobs,did not take him seriously and preoccupied herself with her immediate future gaining the necessary qualifications to make something of her life. Jeremy himself had never looked far ahead in a constructive way,having failed his first attempt at gaining qualifications. As a product of a public school it was others who occupied themselves with the menial tasks and as long as Jeremy had a cheque book he felt security thereby.

It was this callous disregard for people over money which set Jeremy on his evil course. He at first borrowed some of Julie's sleeping pills and drugged his parents' bedtime drinks one night but upon inquiring the following morning as to their slumber realized that they had experienced no detrimental effects. Jeremy was becoming desperate,especially when he saw the bills for Sheila's psychiatric care in March 1985 which were running into thousands of pounds and cutting into his inheritance. He discussed burning the house down with Julie but was talked out of this when he discovered the house was underinsured and many valuable heirlooms would be irreparably lost. It was then that he realized the solution that had been in the back of his mind all along,but even callous Jeremy had rejected it as an extreme solution for one so squeamish about guns. He would have to personally execute the family and make it look as if Sheila had killed them all.

Julie's primary school experience and training kicked in. How could he possibly kill the twins? And here,reader,how could a prospective teacher of small children who must have seen children like them on a regular basis in an educational setting sitting on those tiny plywood chairs with their uncorrupted faces not recoil at such a wicked scheme? Did Julie plead with Jeremy to save the twins,to spare them from this murder ritual,as frightening as any religious ritual that June had made her children and now her grandchildren endure at church and at the farm? No,replied Jeremy heartlessly,the twins would have to go,they were stopping Colin from obtaining regular employment and he would be able to move on with a life and make a fresh start,just as he,Jeremy was planning to do.

Is it this thought,the thought that she could have saved the family,the spectre of Sheila's boys which haunts Julie every day, the new day which dawns in the backdrop of that bleak Canadian landscape?  Sheila's boys,Jeremy's future rivals in the profit-driven culture of the time,were not to be spared. Julie's way of making amends is to put her life and soul into her own boys,her immediate family,to please her husband and to provide enrichment for other people's children,thousands of miles away, the geographical distance numbing somewhat the ramifications of those events twenty seven years ago,though the universality of childhood must bring the tears flooding back on occasion after the school bell has rung.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 02:23:AM by Steve_uk »

Offline petey

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Re: Jeremy's Alibi...
« Reply #175 on: August 08, 2012, 01:03:AM »
An impressively detailed synopsis.

However, more importantly you missed out the caveat "In my opinion"  as I do not believe anything you have stated is proven fact.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Jeremy's Alibi...
« Reply #176 on: August 08, 2012, 01:22:AM »
An impressively detailed synopsis.

However, more importantly you missed out the caveat "In my opinion"  as I do not believe anything you have stated is proven fact.

Yes petey it's my opinion. Could I also make it clear that I do not blame Colin in any way for his throw-away remark which we have all at times been guilty of. Colin I know you loved your children from the bottom of your heart.

Offline petey

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Re: Jeremy's Alibi...
« Reply #177 on: August 08, 2012, 01:32:AM »
Yes petey it's my opinion. Could I also make it clear that I do not blame Colin in any way for his throw-away remark which we have all at times been guilty of. Colin I know you loved your children from the bottom of your heart.

It was not a specific criticism of you or your post.

I just feel that by not including "in my opinion," your post reads as if you are stating clear, unarguable facts which are not in dispute. This is clearly not the case.

"IN MY OPINION" appended to the end of your post might help! (I promise i am not being facetious)

Offline Martin

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Re: Jeremy's Alibi...
« Reply #178 on: August 08, 2012, 06:08:AM »
I have tried to break down Steve's post into parts to try to emphasise his main points and to facilitate analysis.

Julie Mugford was not out for all she could get. She first met Jeremy at a London bar in November 1983 where they were both working and they felt a mutual attraction. It wasn't until a few months later that she realized the farming connection, and at that time Jeremy didn't even have the cottage at Goldhanger. Here is Jeremy back from his working holiday in New Zealand, not wanting to enter the farming way of life, feeling his way around maybe at a bit of a loss, whereupon he meets Julie.

Julie would stay at the cottage in Goldhanger during the holidays and it was then that she would come to meet June Bamber. Again the atmosphere would have been tense whenever June called, sometimes with Sheila and the twins but mostly alone. Again Julie sensed June's disapproval of her relationship with Jeremy and June made it clear that biblically they were living in sin together and that Julie was a harlot. June's hypocrisy is manifested because Sheila is not good enough to marry her son, a view she would have imparted to Jeremy, but again Julie is not in this relationship for short-term gain as she rejects June's offer of buying them a flat if they would leave the village and thereby stop the rumours flowing at the Queen's Head, which were damaging to Ralph's status as the local magistrate.

Jeremy had a strange view of relationships which he had learnt from his parents having employed farm staff: people were used for what they could offer and in return they received payment. There was no emotion involved and Jeremy accepted this as normal; when he one time visited Julie's relations he couldn't understand the tactile nature and the feeling of benevolence in the family was quite alien to him. It was this feeling of warmth and loyalty which kept him in the relationship with an older woman, Suzette Ford for a number of years.


Julie was also learning fast in Thatcherite Britain, the lesson that money talks. Why, she inquired, did Jeremy not just cut loose, leave his family behind and move on? Because, retorted Jeremy, he had too much to lose. It was in this atmosphere that Julie became cocooned, and it is one explanation that inured her to Jeremy's unpleasant and cruel streak.

At the turn of the year 1985 Jeremy had been harbouring thoughts about harming his family.

The farming lifestyle didn't suit, Sheila was living it up in London whilst the agricultural life was hard physical labour, June was unreliable and might easily change her will and leave money to the Church.

Jeremy was a disappointment to Ralph who wanted an heir to take over the managerial responsibility the farm as a business entailed. Jeremy wasn't a natural leader, he didn't inspire confidence around him, and Jeremy was restless. If only his family would disappear Jeremy could receive his inheritance and move on.

Spurred by a chance conversation with Colin Caffell that the twins were "a millstone round my neck" Jeremy began to conceive ways that his family might disappear.


[b]He made hints to Julie,[/b] who busy with the fatigue of teaching practice and giving of herself in a way not demanded by other jobs, did not take him seriously and preoccupied herself with her immediate future gaining the necessary qualifications to make something of her life.

Jeremy himself had never looked far ahead in a constructive way, having failed his first attempt at gaining qualifications. As a product of a public school it was others who occupied themselves with the menial tasks and as long as Jeremy had a cheque book he felt security thereby.

It was this callous disregard for people over money which set Jeremy on his evil course. [/b]He at first borrowed some of Julie's sleeping pills and drugged his parents' bedtime drinks one night but upon inquiring the following morning as to their slumber realized that they had experienced no detrimental effects. Jeremy was becoming desperate, especially when he saw the bills for Sheila's psychiatric care in March 1985 which were running into thousands of pounds and cutting into his inheritance.

He discussed burning the house down with Julie but was talked out of this when he discovered the house was underinsured and many valuable heirlooms would be irreparably lost. It was then that he realized the solution that had been in the back of his mind all along, but even callous Jeremy had rejected it as an extreme solution for one so squeamish about guns. He would have to personally execute the family and make it look as if Sheila had killed them all.


Julie's primary school experience and training kicked in. How could he possibly kill the twins? And here,reader, how could a prospective teacher of small children who must have seen children like them on a regular basis in an educational setting sitting on those tiny plywood chairs with their uncorrupted faces not recoil at such a wicked scheme? Did Julie plead with Jeremy to save the twins, to spare them from this murder ritual, as frightening as any religious ritual that June had made her children and now her grandchildren endure at church and at the farm? No, replied Jeremy heartlessly, the twins would have to go, they were stopping Colin from obtaining regular employment and he would be able to move on with a life and make a fresh start, just as he, Jeremy was planning to do.

Is it this thought, the thought that she could have saved the family, the spectre of Sheila's boys which haunts Julie every day, the new day which dawns in the backdrop of that bleak Canadian landscape?  Sheila's boys, Jeremy's future rivals in the profit-driven culture of the time, were not to be spared. Julie's way of making amends is to put her life and soul into her own boys, her immediate family, to please her husband and to provide enrichment for other people's children, thousands of miles away, the geographical distance numbing somewhat the ramifications of those events twenty seven years ago, though the universality of childhood [/b]must bring the tears flooding back on occasion after the school bell has rung.




The usual criticism of writers who produce this kind of bilge, is that they confuse together fact and  supposition. But this author is so hopelessly inept that he appears be unaware of the distinction between the two. If  I were to make an attempt at this I might write things like
 
"The air is still and the moon is shining into the room and evil Bamber thinks "Tonight's the night!"."

To be sure, some reputable writers sometimes use  dramatic reconstruction to try to show what probably went through a person's mind at a certain time. But what Steve does, habitually, is to use that device to alter the narrative as he chooses, and to peddle fiction disguised as fact which is inexcusable. He also has a nasty habit of insulting people and then to express indignation, if somebody is bold enought to insult him back. I suppose it’s the company you keep!

He appears to be a big fan and imitator of starryian, who typically gives us this style of narrative. For example Starry tells us that Bamber frogmarched Nevill downstairs and much else besides.

Did Julie plead with Jeremy to save the twins?
  He strangely answers the question with Jeremy's alleged reply.

 "No replied Jeremy heartlessly."


This is simply ridiculous. If you ask a question you admit that you don't know the answer. How can you know how somebody replied to a question if you don't even know if it was asked.

Moreover, we are meant  to assume that Mugford is a reliable witness. We know that she definitely lied on several counts. Elsewhere, Steve tells us that Julie was not coached by Stan Jones and was a truthful witness-but that's just the story as he wants it to be. 

I think Steve takes as his model of writing the historical novel where fiction is meant to be included along with basic historical facts, but then he goes a step further: he also invents the facts.

Please don’t anybody bother saying that it’s fact that the jury found Bamber guilty.







 





 








« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 09:15:AM by Martin »

Offline susan

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Re: Jeremy's Alibi...
« Reply #179 on: August 08, 2012, 07:06:AM »
Morning Martin what an excellent refreshing post that others see steve's posts as ridiculous as I do.  Well done.  I think this is how steve would have liked it to be he is about the same age as Jeremy and his feelings for Jeremy are obvious ones of hate and lots of excuses for Julie!!!