Author Topic: Order that PC Bird took photographs at the scene (7th August 1985)?  (Read 11729 times)

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Offline andrea

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Re: Order that PC Bird took photographs at the scene (7th August 1985)?
« Reply #60 on: August 19, 2012, 10:03:PM »
I agree, mertol.
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mertol22

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Re: Order that PC Bird took photographs at the scene (7th August 1985)?
« Reply #61 on: August 19, 2012, 10:20:PM »
just seen on aol 2 children in Leeds have been victims of a hit and run accident , both children are critical in Leeds General Infirmary.

Offline andrea

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Re: Order that PC Bird took photographs at the scene (7th August 1985)?
« Reply #62 on: August 19, 2012, 10:24:PM »
Yes it happened in Hyde Park, yesterday afternoon. I saw it on sky news this morning.
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Offline Roch

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Re: Order that PC Bird took photographs at the scene (7th August 1985)?
« Reply #63 on: August 20, 2012, 12:22:AM »
So far, neither the first nor the second shot has been blamed upon the police in the line of duty.  Therefore the argument that police would have nothing to hide if they had shot Sheila is a red herring.  Sheila was shot with .22 ammunition.  The police cannot shoot Sheila with .22 ammunition in the line of duty.

Offline andrea

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Re: Order that PC Bird took photographs at the scene (7th August 1985)?
« Reply #64 on: August 20, 2012, 12:23:AM »
Do you believe the police shot her, Roch? Just a simple yes or no will do, im off to bed soon.
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Offline mike tesko

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Re: Order that PC Bird took photographs at the scene (7th August 1985)?
« Reply #65 on: August 20, 2012, 05:05:AM »
According to the evidence, there was only one photographic album exhibited at the trial, and that was the COURT ALBUM containing 50 hand picked photographs from PC Birds MASTER COPY ALBUM (223 photographs) compilation, which had an exhibit reference of (A124/85) DB/9...

What becomes clear from reading the contents of PC Birds witness statement (reproduced on this thread) is that photographs contained in this (DB/9) album, were taken on 7th August 1985 at the scene, followed by photographs of Ralph Bamber and Sheila Caffell at the mortuary during autopsy. Followed by photographs of June Bamber and the two child victims taken on 8th August 1985 at the mortuary. Then on 10th September 1985, PC Bird took some more photographs at the scene involving the aga surround when the additional scratch marks first came to light - and all the different sections in this (DB/9) album (aforementioned) were separated by colour divides...
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 05:21:AM by mike tesko »
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Offline mike tesko

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Re: Order that PC Bird took photographs at the scene (7th August 1985)?
« Reply #66 on: August 20, 2012, 05:37:AM »
Do you believe the police shot her, Roch? Just a simple yes or no will do, im off to bed soon.
Linked to this question is - do you think the police substituted a fragmented bullet (PV/20) with a whole bullet so that the ballistic expert could say both bullets fired into Sheila were fired from the same rifle?

Also linked to this matter, is the fact that there exists clear evidence that at 8:44am, when the police surgeon (accompanied by PI "Bob" Miller) pronounced Sheila as being dead at the scene, she only had what appeared to be a solitary wound to her neck. This was repeated at the opening of the inquest by PI Miller, and when Julie Mugford went to identify Sheila's body she only saw one wound on her neck, and she told the relatives and her fiend s that this wound had been inflicted under Sheila's chin...

Police had cut up strips of negatives so that they could suggest that the photographs 27, 28, 32 and 33, were taken before PC Bird took photograph 23 which PC Bird photographed from the vantage point of the middle landing showing the rifle leaning against the bedroom window, where it was firast spotted by WPC Jeapes some 15 minutes or so before the six man raid team had even set off to enter the premises at around 7:30am...

How did the rifle which WPC Jeapes see at the bedroom window, end up on top of Sheila's body by the time the raid team allegedly got into the premises and up into the bedroom by about 8:10am, if Sheila did not move it from the bedroom window? If Sheila had moved that rifle from the window, the police would've said so, but they insist that no-one moved anything, and that the rifle was found a top Sheila's body when they first went into the bedroom, and that Jeremy shot and killed her, and then stage managed her body to fool the police into thinking she took her own life? Well, how could Jeremy get into the farmhouse after 7:15am, and move the rifle from the bedroom window, shoot Sheila under the chin and stage manage her body on the bedroom floor by placing the rifle he had taken from the window onto her body in less than an hour before police say they found her body on the bedroom floor next to the bed? If Sheila didn't take possession of the rifle from the bedroom window after WPC Jeapes first spotted it there, then the only way it could end up on Sheila's body in time for PC Bird to photograph it there in keeping with photo's 27, 28, 32 and 33, was if police moved it from there and placed it on her body...

These are the stone cold facts, indisputable, and no matter what amount of denials are put forward by the police, there is no getting away from the fact that the rifle which fired the fatal bullet (PV/19) under Sheila's chin which killed her, was a rifle that could not have been a top her body at and from 7:15am, and if Sheila's body had been found at all in that bedroom, with the rifle there, the police would have no option but to reach a conclusion that she had been murdered, but they didn't, they chose to go down the road that she had killed the others and then taken her own life. In such circumstances, police must have and did mishandle the rifle that they took from the window during horseplay and a solitary shot was discharged from it under her chin, long after the police surgeon, Dr Craig had pronounced her as being dead at 8:44am...
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 06:35:AM by mike tesko »
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Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Order that PC Bird took photographs at the scene (7th August 1985)?
« Reply #67 on: August 20, 2012, 08:00:AM »
Linked to this question is - do you think the police substituted a fragmented bullet (PV/20) with a whole bullet so that the ballistic expert could say both bullets fired into Sheila were fired from the same rifle?

Also linked to this matter, is the fact that there exists clear evidence that at 8:44am, when the police surgeon (accompanied by PI "Bob" Miller) pronounced Sheila as being dead at the scene, she only had what appeared to be a solitary wound to her neck. This was repeated at the opening of the inquest by PI Miller, and when Julie Mugford went to identify Sheila's body she only saw one wound on her neck, and she told the relatives and her fiend s that this wound had been inflicted under Sheila's chin...

Police had cut up strips of negatives so that they could suggest that the photographs 27, 28, 32 and 33, were taken before PC Bird took photograph 23 which PC Bird photographed from the vantage point of the middle landing showing the rifle leaning against the bedroom window, where it was firast spotted by WPC Jeapes some 15 minutes or so before the six man raid team had even set off to enter the premises at around 7:30am...

How did the rifle which WPC Jeapes see at the bedroom window, end up on top of Sheila's body by the time the raid team allegedly got into the premises and up into the bedroom by about 8:10am, if Sheila did not move it from the bedroom window? If Sheila had moved that rifle from the window, the police would've said so, but they insist that no-one moved anything, and that the rifle was found a top Sheila's body when they first went into the bedroom, and that Jeremy shot and killed her, and then stage managed her body to fool the police into thinking she took her own life? Well, how could Jeremy get into the farmhouse after 7:15am, and move the rifle from the bedroom window, shoot Sheila under the chin and stage manage her body on the bedroom floor by placing the rifle he had taken from the window onto her body in less than an hour before police say they found her body on the bedroom floor next to the bed? If Sheila didn't take possession of the rifle from the bedroom window after WPC Jeapes first spotted it there, then the only way it could end up on Sheila's body in time for PC Bird to photograph it there in keeping with photo's 27, 28, 32 and 33, was if police moved it from there and placed it on her body...

These are the stone cold facts, indisputable, and no matter what amount of denials are put forward by the police, there is no getting away from the fact that the rifle which fired the fatal bullet (PV/19) under Sheila's chin which killed her, was a rifle that could not have been a top her body at and from 7:15am, and if Sheila's body had been found at all in that bedroom, with the rifle there, the police would have no option but to reach a conclusion that she had been murdered, but they didn't, they chose to go down the road that she had killed the others and then taken her own life. In such circumstances, police must have and did mishandle the rifle that they took from the window during horseplay and a solitary shot was discharged from it under her chin, long after the police surgeon, Dr Craig had pronounced her as being dead at 8:44am...

Where is the photograph with Sheila on the bed and no blood running from the corners of her mouth as you claim in #46? The scenario of Sheila shooting herself in the kitchen and then moving upstairs was ruled out by Dr. Vanezis,who said that movement up and downstairs would not have been possible after the first bullet had been discharged. This evidence was given under oath.

As for the rifle seen by WPC Jeapes,surely one of the Police would have kept an eye on this rifle constantly and if it had been moved from the window at any time it would have been noted and reported  to warn any of their colleagues of the danger they would face upon entry into the farm and from what I can make out there was no such report.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 03:42:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline Roch

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Re: Order that PC Bird took photographs at the scene (7th August 1985)?
« Reply #68 on: August 20, 2012, 08:24:AM »
Do you believe the police shot her, Roch? Just a simple yes or no will do, im off to bed soon.

Can you please confirm which weapon you mean and I will try to answer your question.

Offline lookout

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Re: Order that PC Bird took photographs at the scene (7th August 1985)?
« Reply #69 on: August 20, 2012, 09:18:AM »
Sheila had been shot, ( second shot )no doubt about that. Whether " accidental " or otherwise,she didn't administer that shot herself. No silencer.

Offline andrea

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Re: Order that PC Bird took photographs at the scene (7th August 1985)?
« Reply #70 on: August 20, 2012, 10:47:AM »
Can you please confirm which weapon you mean and I will try to answer your question.

i dont believe the police shot her, so what weapons they had with them that morning doesnt matter to me. I just want to know if you believe they shot her, in your opinion which weapon do you think they used?
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Offline mike tesko

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Re: Order that PC Bird took photographs at the scene (7th August 1985)?
« Reply #71 on: August 20, 2012, 11:11:AM »
i dont believe the police shot her, so what weapons they had with them that morning doesnt matter to me. I just want to know if you believe they shot her, in your opinion which weapon do you think they used?

Well, you are wrong then, becauze the police did shoot her once. Another thing, although at least one member of the raid team had a .22 weapon, I am not suggesting this was used to fire the fatal bullet under the chin - police took rifle from window whilst they were fooling around in the bedroom and placed it on her body and because it was not realized the rifle was still loaded a shot was discharged under the chin. It doesn't matter whether you believe they shot Sheila under these circumstances or not, fact is, they did...
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 12:04:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Roch

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Re: Order that PC Bird took photographs at the scene (7th August 1985)?
« Reply #72 on: August 20, 2012, 11:30:AM »
i dont believe the police shot her, so what weapons they had with them that morning doesnt matter to me. I just want to know if you believe they shot her, in your opinion which weapon do you think they used?

Andy I think we're at cross purposes?

Offline Roch

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Re: Order that PC Bird took photographs at the scene (7th August 1985)?
« Reply #73 on: August 20, 2012, 04:55:PM »
i dont believe the police shot her, so what weapons they had with them that morning doesnt matter to me. I just want to know if you believe they shot her, in your opinion which weapon do you think they used?

I'm open minded about both of her shots.  If the ballistics evidence relating to the retrieved bullets is to believed, then they were .22.  Mike has possibly trashed my argument from yesterday (see posts between my self and Bridget) by alleging that one of the raid team was carrying a .22 weapon (that was not used in shooting Sheila).  I had argued that I thought the reasoning why would police cover up shooting a mad woman with a gun? was flawed because it related to police discharging their own weapons, none of which were .22 (or so I thought).

Hope this makes sense  :-\   

To answer your question, I'm open minded about Mike's accidental mishandling of the rifle theory, which he states as fact.  Non-committal.  Splinters in my arse, as usual.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 04:56:PM by Roch »

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Order that PC Bird took photographs at the scene (7th August 1985)?
« Reply #74 on: August 21, 2012, 11:39:AM »
Confirmation that one of the firearms officers was issued with a .22 weapon befire going to the incident at whf can be found in a witness statement made by the officer in question...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...