Author Topic: Lies told about state of blood (SC) - easily disproved...  (Read 53643 times)

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Offline jon

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Re: Lies told about state of blood (SC) - easily disproved...
« Reply #180 on: August 05, 2012, 08:28:AM »
You can see the necklace in both photographs. The reason the gun appears to have moved in relation to the necklace is described above. The barrel of the gun is several inches above and to the right (her right) of her neck. Try it.
You can not , it's like the ball crossing the line in football , if you can see the grass between the ball and line it as crossed the line , no matter what angle you photograph the line , in this case the ball as comfortably crossed the line !! The necklace must always be able to be seen here !!

Offline Bridget

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Re: Lies told about state of blood (SC) - easily disproved...
« Reply #181 on: August 05, 2012, 08:33:AM »
You can not , it's like the ball crossing the line in football , if you can see the grass between the ball and line it as crossed the line , no matter what angle you photograph the line , in this case the ball as comfortably crossed the line !! The necklace must always be able to be seen here !!

If the ball is in the air you cannot tell whether it has crossed the line unless you are on the line.

To be honest, this theory is so easily disproven it's not worth debating. Believe the gun has moved if you want to.
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Lies told about state of blood (SC) - easily disproved...
« Reply #182 on: August 05, 2012, 08:33:AM »
It is not physically possible for the barrel to be resting on the left hand side of Sheila's neck as it appears to do in photo 27. Look at this b&w photo:



The rifle butt is central to her body, laying as it is along the line where her legs meet. The trigger is roughly in the groin area, and the gun changes angle at that point and draws a line from the groin to the right hand side of her chest, and because of the angle the photo is taken from appears to extend up towards the point of her chin. If viewed from a point on the floor beside Sheila, the gun would also elevate along its length from butt to muzzle, because in a person of normal weight the legs and pelvis are quite a bit lower than the front of the chest when laying on the back.

Now photo 32:



The butt end of the gun is still central to her body and the barrel is still resting on the right hand side of the chest, so that the gun is actually pointing slightly towards the photographer and is also raised towards him. You can see that the barrel is actually a few inches above the neck and collar bone by the shadow. Because of the angle the photo has been taken the barrel appears to be foreshortened.

Photo 27:



The butt is still central to her body, and the barrel still angles from the groin across the left hand side of the chest. It is physically impossible for it to then touch the left hand side of her neck, because it would have to bend not only in that direction, but also downwards. What you are seeing in 27 is the barrel in front of and above that side of her neck, and it is also lengthened by the angle of the photo. If you still don't believe me find an average sized woman, lay her on the floor with a stick in the position of the gun. You will see for yourself exactly what I describe.

Your explanation cannot be right, because for the barrel of the rifle to be extended in the manner you propose the photographer would have to have been lower down the body and closer to it, than is apparent in the photograph 27, where the vantage point of the photographer is not in such a position as to create the effect you are trying to promote - you are trying to introduce a feature which does not equate with the position and angle that the photographer was standing in with his camera when he took photographs 27 as opposed to 32...

The other feature which you appear to completely overlook, is the way the shadow from the length of the guns barrel does not deviate which it would do, because if the end of the barrel was not resting upon the body (32), you wound get the sort of deviation in the shadow as shown in 32. You do not get this in 27 because at that time, the barrel of the gun was / is resting upon the body (neck) which produced a shadow that is perfectly consistent along the whole length of the guns barrel which is resting upon the body and against the neck. You could not get that shadow effect in such a consistent format if the barrel of the gun was not resting against the body as in 32, no matter which angle the photographer took his picture from - you would always get a deviation in / of the shadow because of the gap between body and barrel of rifle. The shadow along the full length of the rifles barrel (as in 27), therefore, is a key feature which helps to establish that the barrel of the gun is positioned differently in 27 as opposed to 32. The effect of shadow deviation to which I am referring to can clearly be seen by looking at 32, where the shadow from the end of the guns barrel deviates to the left in a totally different direction, all because the barrel is not resting against or upon the body...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline jon

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Re: Lies told about state of blood (SC) - easily disproved...
« Reply #183 on: August 05, 2012, 08:34:AM »
For your description to be correct the camera would have to be low down above SC head and shoulder's and it is not both are from a vantage point above SC !!

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Lies told about state of blood (SC) - easily disproved...
« Reply #184 on: August 05, 2012, 08:37:AM »
If the ball is in the air you cannot tell whether it has crossed the line unless you are on the line.

To be honest, this theory is so easily disproven it's not worth debating. Believe the gun has moved if you want to.

Gun was moved, and you are being absolutely ridiculous - just look at the shape of the bloodstain on the nightdress (upper right hand side of nightdress) in 27 and 32, you can clearly see that it is different, and there is no way on gods green earth, or in a month of sunday's you can claim that the bloodstain in question only appears to be different because of the angle that the photograph was taken in - gun was moved, nightdress was adjusted, end of story...

Not only was gun moved, but nightdress was also moved - in order to adjust nightdress, the gun would have to be moved...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Bridget

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Re: Lies told about state of blood (SC) - easily disproved...
« Reply #185 on: August 05, 2012, 08:39:AM »
Sorry, once both of you have tried laying something resembling a gun from your groin, to the right hand side of your chest, and then tried to get it to touch the left hand side of your neck I'll start listening.
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Offline jon

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Re: Lies told about state of blood (SC) - easily disproved...
« Reply #186 on: August 05, 2012, 08:45:AM »
Sorry, once both of you have tried laying something resembling a gun from your groin, to the right hand side of your chest, and then tried to get it to touch the left hand side of your neck I'll start listening.

That part of your argument is correct in my opinion , but you can not cut across the necklace in one photo and not in another from the angle the photos are taken , which is above SC !!

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Lies told about state of blood (SC) - easily disproved...
« Reply #187 on: August 05, 2012, 08:46:AM »
I am a very experienced photographer, who specializes in using angles and shade and light to produce and create rather unusual photographs, you might say the techniques I use border on special effects by just using the camera settings, angle photograph is taken from, and to a certain extent manipulation of shade, light and dark - with this in mind, I know what I am talking about when I say the rifles barrel as shown in 27 is resting against Sheila's neck / throat, but in 32 it is not. You are seeking to rely upon only one feature (angle) to try and promote the idea that the rifles barrel is not actually resting upon or against Sheila's neck / throat, but you cannot do that by just relying upon angle alone, there are other features which you choose to ignore which I have tried to bring to your attention...

Besides, you have not yet seen photographs 26, 28, 29, 30, 31 and 33, which were photographs taken at the scene of Sheila, from different angles which confirm that police moved the rifle from the body and replaced it, so until you see those you are only speculating by a reliance upon one feature (angle) to try and wrongly promote the suggestion that the rifles barrel in 27 is not resting against Sheila's neck...

You are wrong...
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 08:49:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Bridget

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Re: Lies told about state of blood (SC) - easily disproved...
« Reply #188 on: August 05, 2012, 08:51:AM »
That part of your argument is correct in my opinion , but you can not cut across the necklace in one photo and not in another from the angle the photos are taken , which is above SC !!

The necklace is several inches behind and below the barrel, so of course it is going to appear to move in relation to the barrel as the angle changes.

Mike, forget all of your photographic experience and lay on the floor with a stick (remember to suck your belly in).
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline jon

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Re: Lies told about state of blood (SC) - easily disproved...
« Reply #189 on: August 05, 2012, 08:54:AM »
If the ball is in the air you cannot tell whether it has crossed the line unless you are on the line.

To be honest, this theory is so easily disproven it's not worth debating. Believe the gun has moved if you want to.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/Soccer/New-calls-for-video-refereeing-as-linesmans-error-robs-Spurs/2005/01/05/1104832177121.html

Offline Bridget

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Re: Lies told about state of blood (SC) - easily disproved...
« Reply #190 on: August 05, 2012, 08:59:AM »
http://www.smh.com.au/news/Soccer/New-calls-for-video-refereeing-as-linesmans-error-robs-Spurs/2005/01/05/1104832177121.html

That photo illustrates my point perfectly. You cannot actually tell from the photo whether the ball is on the ground a foot the other side of the line, in the air directly above the line, or in the air the pitch side of the line. Can you not see that?
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Offline jon

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Re: Lies told about state of blood (SC) - easily disproved...
« Reply #191 on: August 05, 2012, 09:08:AM »
That photo illustrates my point perfectly. You cannot actually tell from the photo whether the ball is on the ground a foot the other side of the line, in the air directly above the line, or in the air the pitch side of the line. Can you not see that?
The point is you can see the line/necklace clearly , now from an angle high you will always be able to see the line/necklace , you now show us a line broken from above in one photo and not in another photo from above , as is the case with SC !!

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Lies told about state of blood (SC) - easily disproved...
« Reply #192 on: August 05, 2012, 09:12:AM »
Using your angle theory, to try and explain how the barrel of the rifle appears to be resting against Sheila's neck, you would have to be lower down and closer to the body to displace the position of the end of the barrel higher up ( creating a sort of optical illusion if you like), but the lower you go down the bigger the gap between the body and the rifles barrel (which is not evident in photograph 27, but is shown in photograph 32) would show up. Similarly, your angle theory does not take into account the dramatic change in the shape and positioning of the bloodstain situated top right of Sheila's nightdress? Since, if you are going lower down so that you can create the impression that the end of the rifles barrel is higher up on the body, you would also be altering what you could see of the aforementioned bloodstain in 27. In my view, you would see slightly less of it, not more of it, and the characteristics of the actual stain would not alter to such an extent as it appears to have done when you compare 27 to 32? In your explanation you only rely upon angle, but I have already pointed put that the position and characteristics of the shadow along the full length of the guns barrel is consistent with the barrel resting against Sheila's neck / throat in 27, and it is consistent in 32 with the barrel not resting against her body where the end of the barrel rises up away from the body - you need to add to this the shape and position of the bloodstain on the upper nightdress...

Police moved gun its as simple as that, not only that but in one breath police say nobody touched or moved anything except Sheila's hand so that PC Bird could photograph a bloodstain on the front lower nightdress being worn by Sheila, but in the next breath DI "Ron" Cook is claiming he removed the rifle and placed it against the bedroom window where PC Bird took a photograph of it from the vantage point of the middle landing on the main stairs. So, depending upon which version of police events you choose to believe, they didn't move it, they moved it, and all this was taking place whilst PC Bird was taking his pictures of Sheila in the main bedroom. Still to be fathomed out, is who replaced the rifle which Cook had removed from Sheila's body and placed it against the bedroom window, who put it back on the body, to enable PS Woodcock to be able to remove it again from Sheila's body at 11;10am, to make it safe?

If Cook removed the rifle earlier, and put it against the bedroom window and Bird took a picture of the rifle there (23) from the vantage point of the middle landing, which Bird says was a photograph he took after his first session in the main bedroom, how could 27 and 32 have been taken before 23 with the rifle leaning against the bedroom window? So, if we take PC Birds trial testimony that he took photograph 23 (rifle leaning against window) before 27 and 32, it can only mean that somebody replaced the rifle atop Sheila's body in different positions as at 27 and 32, to try and show how Sheila could have shot herself (or not) with the rifle in the photographs?

Which came first do you think:-

Photograph 23?
photograph 27?
photograph 32?

If 23 was taken first, rifle was not on the body, until 27 and then 32...
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 09:17:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Bridget

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Re: Lies told about state of blood (SC) - easily disproved...
« Reply #193 on: August 05, 2012, 09:13:AM »
The point is you can see the line/necklace clearly , now from an angle high you will always be able to see the line/necklace , you now show us a line broken from above in one photo and not in another photo from above , as is the case with SC !!

I disagree, the photographer is standing to one side, and moves to another position to one side. As he moves towards Sheila's head the necklace becomes visible because it is actually several inches below and to the side of the barrel. I wish you'd just do the experiment.
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline jon

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Re: Lies told about state of blood (SC) - easily disproved...
« Reply #194 on: August 05, 2012, 09:20:AM »
I disagree, the photographer is standing to one side, and moves to another position to one side. As he moves towards Sheila's head the necklace becomes visible because it is actually several inches below and to the side of the barrel. I wish you'd just do the experiment.

The necklace can not become visible  from above in one photo and then not in another photo from above , is the camera man looking down in both photo's ? Post us a photo from your experiment showing what you claim !!