Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...

[Patti]

Could we please have less waffle and talking shop and more explaining what the significance of these bullets are in relation to how and where the victims were killed and any relevance as to a conspiracy among the interested parties..

Lol..............

Sorry Steve, do keep up. There is always another thread to read. Sorry If you find this boring. I will give you a clue it sounds like rubber...

[mike tesko]

Angle that both shots were fired at and sustained makes it an impossibility for Sheila to have been shot twice in the neck with her body there insitu on the bedroom floor with her head askewed to one side of the bedside cabinet:-

"How did the wooden butt of the rifle manage to get beyond the side of the bed when either one or both shots were fired"?




"Notice transfiguration of bloodstain on the right upper part of her nightdress between each photograph having been taken, I suppose if they could get away with saying so, police and relatives would blame Jeremy for that / this"?

[Patti]

Cheers Hartley and Mike.

You see where I am coming from...I know I waffle on and on...but believe me I am really a quiet person.

So, what have we got so far. Yawn!...

1, PV2 supposedly from left arm of NB
2, A diagram which shows an exit wound? (bullets normally exit out) PV2
3, A damaged bullet almost intact weighing 2.4267gms (PV2)
4, Pathologist reports no bullet taken from Left arm?
5, Fletcher reports PV2 from left arm
6, Now Vanezes says PV2 was a flattened bullet from Ralphs arm. So it is not an exit wound? 

Something not right here......

[mike tesko]

Cheers Hartley and Mike.

You see where I am coming from...I know I waffle on and on...but believe me I am really a quiet person.

So, what have we got so far. Yawn!...

1, PV2 supposedly from left arm of NB
2, A diagram which shows an exit wound? (bullets normally exit out) PV2
3, A damaged bullet almost intact weighing 2.4267gms (PV2)
4, Pathologist reports no bullet taken from Left arm?
5, Fletcher reports PV2 from left arm
6, Now Vanezes says PV2 was a flattened bullet from Ralphs arm. So it is not an exit wound? 

Something not right here......

Such confusion arises because of the cover up and the tampering with exhibits, namely bullets and cartridge cases from the original batch of crime scene ammunition...

[susan]

Patti  I for one are finding your theory and discussion with Hartley and Mike totally absorbing and to go further with this thread we need to understand where we are at now  :)Your post is very intelligent and could never never be described as waffle.

[-Harters-]

Cheers Hartley and Mike.

You see where I am coming from...I know I waffle on and on...but believe me I am really a quiet person.

So, what have we got so far. Yawn!...

1, PV2 supposedly from left arm of NB
2, A diagram which shows an exit wound? (bullets normally exit out) PV2
3, A damaged bullet almost intact weighing 2.4267gms (PV2)
4, Pathologist reports no bullet taken from Left arm?
5, Fletcher reports PV2 from left arm
6, Now Vanezes says PV2 was a flattened bullet from Ralphs arm. So it is not an exit wound? 

Something not right here......

Lol.

Could PV/5 (a bullet fragment) be related to one of the other bullets rather than a separate bullet in it's own right?

Or.

I think if we could separate wound No's. 7 & 8 as shown on the diagram,  then we might get somewhere. I'm beginning to think that PV/2 related to No. 7 and not No. 8. No. 8 being unrecoverable for whatever reason. 

[mike tesko]

Lol.

Could PV/5 (a bullet fragment) be related to one of the other bullets rather than a separate bullet in it's own right?

Or.

I think if we could separate wound No's. 7 & 8 as shown on the diagram,  then we might get somewhere. I'm beginning to think that PV/2 related to No. 7 and not No. 8. No. 8 being unrecoverable for whatever reason. 

This then becomes very interesting, because that would mean a 26th bullet fired, and only 25 bullet cases recovered from the scene? So where did that additional bullet case disappear to? Was it retained in the breach of the other bolt action rifle that fired it?

[-Harters-]

8 Bullets recovered from Ralph's body during autopsy:-

(1) - PV/2 - flattened bullet (left arm of Ralph Bamber)
(2) - PV/3 - bullet from top of skull, left temple (Ralph Bamber)
(3) - PV/4 - bullet from top / front of skull (Ralph Bamber)
(4) - PV/5 - bullet fragment from left jaw (Ralph Bamber)
(5) - PV/8 - bullet, base of skull, left side (Ralph Bamber)
(6) - PV/9 - bullet, top of brain left side (Ralph Bamber)
(7) - PV/10 - bullet from left side of neck (Ralph bamber)
( - PV/11 - bullet from cervical muscles in left side of neck (Ralph Bamber)

Of all of these, only one refers to an arm, the remainder are neck or head.

Patti, why did you think PV/2 was an exit wound, is it from Fletcher?

[mike tesko]

This then becomes very interesting, because that would mean a 26th bullet fired, and only 25 bullet cases recovered from the scene? So where did that additional bullet case disappear to? Was it retained in the breach of the other bolt action rifle that fired it?

When a round is fired via the semi-automatic rifle the corresponding bullet case is automatically ejected from the weapon, but when a shot is fired via a bolt action rifle the spent bullet case is retained in the breach until the shooter or anyone else manually operates the bolt to physically eject it...

What seems apparent to me - is that Sheila attempted to kill herself by use of this second bolt action type weapon downstairs, and had no time to carry out the necessary action to cause the ejection of the spent cartridge case from the breach of that weapon, or that the weapon she used was an air rifle which had no corresponding bullet case? Either explanation would account for the potential existence of 26 rounds, and only 25 bullet cases (found loosely at the scene)...

[mike tesko]

None of us ( whichever side of the fence we might be sitting upon) should disregard the existence of this second weapon that was found downstairs which had red paint on the end of its barrel, which DS Davidson told COLP about during their 1991 police investigation into the handling of this case by Essex police? You should bear in mind that the reason DS Davidson told COLP about this second weapon was because of the fact that a paint sample bearing the exhibit reference of RC/1 had been taken from the aga surround on 8th August 1985, by "Ron" Cook, who has since denied ever taking such a sample on that occasion?

Cook was shitting himself that if he admitted to taking such a paint (RC/1) sample, it would lead on to the discovery that police showed an interest in a second rifle as part of their investigation into these deaths, which had been found downstairs that had red paint on the end of its barrel, a second weapon which police knew had been used in the shooting of Sheila Caffell...

So, why didn't Davidson, or Essex police, or COLP simply identify then second weapon in question and put us all out of our misery? The answer to this lies behind a shield of Pii...

[Patti]

Lol.

Could PV/5 (a bullet fragment) be related to one of the other bullets rather than a separate bullet in it's own right?

Or.

I think if we could separate wound No's. 7 & 8 as shown on the diagram,  then we might get somewhere. I'm beginning to think that PV/2 related to No. 7 and not No. 8. No. 8 being unrecoverable for whatever reason. 

Yes PV5 is a fragment  and it could be related to another bullet.

7 is the wound to the shoulder....In the general examination list that we have on here, Fletcher does not examine that bullet...Or, it is possible we don't have the full list of what he examined?

Vanezes states he takes that bullet out of wound 7 (the shoulder)  Yes there could be a mix up here and, this bullet could be PV2...It makes sense, but why hasn't anyone picked up on this?

The only thing is that there were fragments viewed in the radiograph that linked to PV2...in the chest cavity...

Would the bullet have curved though, going through the shoulder.

Did PV2 go through the arm and into the shoulder?

It complicated ask Bridget...lol 

[Patti]

Of all of these, only one refers to an arm, the remainder are neck or head.

Patti, why did you think PV/2 was an exit wound, is it from Fletcher?

Fletcher examines PV2 on the document it says Ralph Bamber's Left arm. 

[Patti]

Lol.

Could PV/5 (a bullet fragment) be related to one of the other bullets rather than a separate bullet in it's own right?

Or.

I think if we could separate wound No's. 7 & 8 as shown on the diagram,  then we might get somewhere. I'm beginning to think that PV/2 related to No. 7 and not No. 8. No. 8 being unrecoverable for whatever reason. 

Hartley if you are single, never marry me.....we are on the wrong thread...hahahahahahah Look at the thread General examination records - Crime Scene Ammunition...Look at the 1st posted document...

Why am i here.....lololol

[mike tesko]

Hartley if you are single, never marry me.....we are on the wrong thread...hahahahahahah Look at the thread General examination records - Crime Scene Ammunition...Look at the 1st posted document...

Why am i here.....lololol

Look here:-

[mike tesko]

I am saying that in order for Sheila to have been shot under the chin, and taking into account the path and trajectory that bullet PV/20 took to end up embedded inside Sheila's brain, the rifle (Y) which fired that fatal bullet would have to be flush with her body so that the muzzle of the gun was almost if not in contact with the surface of the skin beneath her chin, and that you could not get the rifle to fit into the relatively small space afforded by reference to the photographs which show Sheila's body on the floor with her head lopsided next to the bedroom cabinet, irrespective of whether or not her head was resting up against the cabinet or laid to one side - you cannot get the rifle in the correct position to say she was shot there by anyone, not by herself, not by Jeremy, not by any would be as yet unidentified killer or hitman, and not by the police themselves...



"Sheila's body was stage managed by the police and laid in the position shown in the photographs"...