Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...

[Patti]

I could go with some of the bullets being different. This could explain why some of the measurements were different upon entry. 

What I am going to do is cross reference the bullets examined by Fletcher, with the bullets/shell cases collected and the measurement of entry wounds. A tad time consuming, but might be worth doing. 

[Patti]

How odd. First one I choose is PV2
Bullet
Ralph's left arm.
Weight 2.4277gms

This is important, because this wound was an exit wound. I can't find out where this bullet was found?

This bullet is almost intact. It has damage on one side and appears to have hit a curved surface.

Am I right or am I wrong...Does an exit wound mean the bullet passed through and came out of the other side?

If I am right, then how does Fletcher know this is the bullet that passed through Ralph's left arm?

Vanezes:

Oblique grazing wound measuring 1/2" situated 4" above the left elbow and associated with surrounding bruises.

The track of this wound was from the left arm and, against the left side of the lower chest causing 1 1/2 graze with a curve edge which was 3/16 in width. The radiograph showed fragments of a bullet in hte left lower chest, although these could not be located within the body cavity.

So can someone tell me where PV2 came from?

[Jane]

Jam and Roch, well done, both of you.

[-Harters-]

How odd. First one I choose is PV2
Bullet
Ralph's left arm.
Weight 2.4277gms

This is important, because this wound was an exit wound. I can't find out where this bullet was found?

This bullet is almost intact. It has damage on one side and appears to have hit a curved surface.

Am I right or am I wrong...Does an exit wound mean the bullet passed through and came out of the other side?

If I am right, then how does Fletcher know this is the bullet that passed through Ralph's left arm?

Vanezes:

Oblique grazing wound measuring 1/2" situated 4" above the left elbow and associated with surrounding bruises.

The track of this wound was from the left arm and, against the left side of the lower chest causing 1 1/2 graze with a curve edge which was 3/16 in width. The radiograph showed fragments of a bullet in hte left lower chest, although these could not be located within the body cavity.

So can someone tell me where PV2 came from?

Hi Patti,

First of all the PV refers to an exhibit discovered/found by Vanezis, so the bullet is from the body of Ralph on this occasion.

Without being too grisly, I'm guessing that the bullet never quite exited the body, ie it forced it's way to the surface and made an exit wound, but lodged without actually wholly exiting.

That's just a guess, although I seem to recall reading something along the same lines before, but I forget where.

[-Harters-]

Actually the more I look at it, then the more it appears to read as if the bullet went through Ralphs arm, exited and then entered his abdomen. 

What do you think? No 8 on the diagram below.

[Patti]

Hi Patti,

First of all the PV refers to an exhibit discovered/found by Vanezis, so the bullet is from the body of Ralph on this occasion.

Without being too grisly, I'm guessing that the bullet never quite exited the body, ie it forced it's way to the surface and made an exit wound, but lodged without actually wholly exiting.

That's just a guess, although I seem to recall reading something along the same lines before, but I forget where.

Hi Hartley

It is slightly confusing, because Fletcher describes the bullet as being intact, but slightly damaged at one side, having hit a curved surface. PV2

Vanezes states that the track of a bullet went  in the left arm and fragments were radiographed in the chest...He makes no mention of finding a bullet...He goes on to say that the fragments could not be retrieved from the chest.

Yes, the drawing says the bullet made an exit in the left arm....

There might be a simple explanation, but where did the bullet come from....Yes Vanezes finds it, but does not elaborate on it...he only talks about the fragments of the chest. He never mentions taking a bullet out of the arm or chest....yet Fletcher examines it and weighs it...

It could be he forgot to mention it.....

[Patti]

Actually the more I look at it, then the more it appears to read as if the bullet went through Ralphs arm, exited and then entered his abdomen. 

What do you think? No 8 on the diagram below.

The angle of the shot looks slightly downwards to me, but then that depends on where he had his arm at the time of the shot...an exit wound it is...but where did Vanezes get the bullet from? 

[-Harters-]

Hi Hartley

It is slightly confusing, because Fletcher describes the bullet as being intact, but slightly damaged at one side, having hit a curved surface. PV2

Vanezes states that the track of a bullet went  in the left arm and fragments were radiographed in the chest...He makes no mention of finding a bullet...He goes on to say that the fragments could not be retrieved from the chest.

Yes, the drawing says the bullet made an exit in the left arm....

There might be a simple explanation, but where did the bullet come from....Yes Vanezes finds it, but does not elaborate on it...he only talks about the fragments of the chest. He never mentions taking a bullet out of the arm or chest....yet Fletcher examines it and weighs it...

It could be he forgot to mention it.....

I read it as the unrecoverable fragments being additional to the bullet, which is then odd given the already high weight, it would be even higher if the fragments were added. 

The curved surface could be Ralphs left humerus I suppose.

Also, I might be making this up, but I seem to have a vague recolection of a bullet being recovered loose from within Ralphs pyjama top, does that ring any bells?

[mike tesko]

Venezis recovered 8 bullets from the body of Ralph Bamber during autopsy - he did not recover any loose bullet from his pyjama...

[Patti]

I read it as the unrecoverable fragments being additional to the bullet, which is then odd given the already high weight, it would be even higher if the fragments were added. 

The curved surface could be Ralphs left humerus I suppose.

Also, I might be making this up, but I seem to have a vague recolection of a bullet being recovered loose from within Ralphs pyjama top, does that ring any bells?

No Hartley I rechecked it and he doesn't say additional to the bullet. Yes the curved shape could be the bone...I've not heard of any bullet found in the PJ's...

He goes on to say in his summing up..:

There was evidence of 8 gunshots wounds having been received by the victim.  (7 of which had entered the body. 6 in the head and neck. 1 in the left arm.

That leaves you with one bullet missing, that bullet I believe is the one that made an exit in the arm.

He only accounts for 7 bullets. Do you see where I am coming from? Fletcher is examining PV2 from NB's left arm, yet it is an exit wound...

[Patti]

Venezis recovered 8 bullets from the body of Ralph Bamber during autopsy - he did not recover any loose bullet from his pyjama...

Hi Mike

Either I can't add up or I am blind....Vanezes recovers 7 bullets....he states clearly here...

(There was evidence of 8 gunshots wounds having been received by the victim.  (7 of which had entered the body. 6 in the head and neck. 1 in the left arm. )

He tells you there is evidence of 8 wounds...but only retrieves 7 bullets...

Anyway, I am harping on about it....I think i will   

[-Harters-]

No Hartley I rechecked it and he doesn't say additional to the bullet. Yes the curved shape could be the bone...I've not heard of any bullet found in the PJ's...

He goes on to say in his summing up..:

There was evidence of 8 gunshots wounds having been received by the victim.  (7 of which had entered the body. 6 in the head and neck. 1 in the left arm.

That leaves you with one bullet missing, that bullet I believe is the one that made an exit in the arm.

He only accounts for 7 bullets. Do you see where I am coming from? Fletcher is examining PV2 from NB's left arm, yet it is an exit wound...

Oh I see what your saying, I just don't have the answer.

It's interesting what you say about:

There was evidence of 8 gunshots wounds having been received by the victim.  (7 of which had entered the body. 6 in the head and neck. 1 in the left arm.)

I could sort of read that as bullets which entered and stayed in his body, the one in his left arm being No. 7 in the previously posted diagram rather than 8.

I'll have a search about a bullet being in his PJ's, I'm sure I've read it somewhere, maybe it was suggested by a forum member when this was brought up before, I'll see what I can find.

PV/2 is described as a flattened bullet here:

[-Harters-]

Which bullet is No.7?

PV what?

[Steve_uk]

Could we please have less waffle and talking shop and more explaining what the significance of these bullets are in relation to how and where the victims were killed and any relevance as to a conspiracy among the interested parties..

[mike tesko]

8 Bullets recovered from Ralph's body during autopsy:-

(1) - PV/2 - flattened bullet (left arm of Ralph Bamber)
(2) - PV/3 - bullet from top of skull, left temple (Ralph Bamber)
(3) - PV/4 - bullet from top / front of skull (Ralph Bamber)
(4) - PV/5 - bullet fragment from left jaw (Ralph Bamber)
(5) - PV/8 - bullet, base of skull, left side (Ralph Bamber)
(6) - PV/9 - bullet, top of brain left side (Ralph Bamber)
(7) - PV/10 - bullet from left side of neck (Ralph bamber)
(8) - PV/11 - bullet from cervical muscles in left side of neck (Ralph Bamber)