Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...

[Bridget]

Who said they were heavier? Not seen that.....Had a fab dinner and watched our Yorkshire lass from Otley win the silver....Well done Lizzie. 

I watched that too - incredible!

Mike said they weigh 2.26g to start with, but quite a few weighed in at over 2.4g.

[Patti]

I watched that too - incredible!

Mike said they weigh 2.26g to start with, but quite a few weighed in at over 2.4g.

Where can I find this, is part of Fletcher's statement?  I will go and look...

[mike tesko]

What I find interesting, are the contents of a handwritten note sent by "Ron" Cook (SOCO) to the ballistic expert, Malcom Fletcher, about the silencer being possibly damaged due to it having received a hard knock, and that when test fired bullets were being fired through it, they were becoming damaged. Cook wanted to know if the silencer could be warped after striking a hard surface?

What this tells us is that before the silencer was sent to the lab' police had conducted tests by firing control bullets through the silencer, and that these control bullets were fragmenting badly. This is very interesting, since if the shot under Sheila's chin was inflicted with the silencer attached to the barrel of rifle "Y", the bullet in question should have fragmented as it passed through the 17 misaligned baffle plates so that when it ended up inside Sheila's brain, it could not be a whole bullet? On the other hand, it leads one to suspect that in the case of the first shot (PV/20), the one which was fired slightly off centre but to the left of the throat, that the damaged silencer could have been used. Indeed if you include the corresponding ring of bruising around the lower so called non fatal entry wound site, it could be an indication that such a silencer which (during unreported test firing using control ammunition) was causing bullets fired through it to fragment, may have been fitted to the barrel of the gun which fired that (PV/20) bullet?

This would explain why police or somebody connected with the investigation, decided it was best to substitute or swap over the original fragmented bullet (PV/20) for a test fired control bullet so that the argument could be put that both bullets recovered from Sheila's neck were whole, and easily linked to the rifle (Y) because both of those bullets had been fired via rifle "Y" albeit at different times, one (PV/19) fired via rifle "Y" during the shootings, and the substituted or replaced bullet (PV/20) fired via rifle "Y" later on during these unreported test firing...

[Bridget]

Where can I find this, is part of Fletcher's statement?  I will go and look...

It's in the record posted on this thread:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2506.0.html

[mike tesko]

What I find interesting, are the contents of a handwritten note sent by "Ron" Cook (SOCO) to the ballistic expert, Malcom Fletcher, about the silencer being possibly damaged due to it having received a hard knock, and that when test fired bullets were being fired through it, they were becoming damaged. Cook wanted to know if the silencer could be warped after striking a hard surface?

What this tells us is that before the silencer was sent to the lab' police had conducted tests by firing control bullets through the silencer, and that these control bullets were fragmenting badly. This is very interesting, since if the shot under Sheila's chin was inflicted with the silencer attached to the barrel of rifle "Y", the bullet in question should have fragmented as it passed through the 17 misaligned baffle plates so that when it ended up inside Sheila's brain, it could not be a whole bullet? On the other hand, it leads one to suspect that in the case of the first shot (PV/20), the one which was fired slightly off centre but to the left of the throat, that the damaged silencer could have been used. Indeed if you include the corresponding ring of bruising around the lower so called non fatal entry wound site, it could be an indication that such a silencer which (during unreported test firing using control ammunition) was causing bullets fired through it to fragment, may have been fitted to the barrel of the gun which fired that (PV/20) bullet?

This would explain why police or somebody connected with the investigation, decided it was best to substitute or swap over the original fragmented bullet (PV/20) for a test fired control bullet so that the argument could be put that both bullets recovered from Sheila's neck were whole, and easily linked to the rifle (Y) because both of those bullets had been fired via rifle "Y" albeit at different times, one (PV/19) fired via rifle "Y" during the shootings, and the substituted or replaced bullet (PV/20) fired via rifle "Y" later on during these unreported test firing...

I am not convinced by the argument that the original PV/20 bullet fragmented once it struck the 4th vertebrae inside Sheila's neck, I think that bullet got damaged as it passed through the warped silencer, and if I am right then of course this would go to the heart of the matter concerning whether or not a silencer was used on the gun which fired the fatal bullet (PV/19) under the chin? You would end up with a fragmented bullet (PV/20) and a whole bullet (PV/19), one fired through a warped silencer, and the other fired via rifle "Y" minus that damaged silencer. Basically, this was one of the reasons why someone took the decision to present bullet PV/20 as a whole bullet, rather than the fragmented one it had originally been...

The damaged silencer (SBJ/1) was the one which DS "Stan" Jones took possession of at the scene on the morning of 7th August 1985, at the time he also took possession of three other exhibits, SBJ/2, SBJ/3 and SBJ/4. It was the very same silencer which DCI Jones and DS Jones spoke to Jeremy about at his cottage on the afternoon of 9th August 1985 (day before relatives found the other silencer in the gun cupboard)...

"Stan" the man, Jones, needs to asked about when he took possession of exhibits SBJ/2, SBJ/3 and SBJ/4, and what his exhibit SBJ/1 was / is? Until you let a scumbag like him keep getting away with not having to answer questions such as this, the criminal justice system will be in disrepute. He also needs to be taken to task about the pocketbook entries that he re-wrote so that he could eliminate evidence in the original version about finding and taking possession and control of the silencer (SBJ/1) at the scene on the morning of the shootings? There are three different start dates on the front cover of the pocketbook which DS "Stan" Jones records his contemporaneous notes, and entries in that doctored notebook have been countersigned by PI "Bob" Miller, who was / is responsible for producing a handwritten schedule in which he requests witnesses to make alterations to exhibit references of exhibits in the case - this is the same "Bob" Miller who on 14th August 1985, attended the opening of the inquest into these deaths and told Deputy Coroner, Mr Thompkins, that police were satisfied that Sheila shot and killed the others, and that she had then gone on to take her own life by way of a solitary shot beneath the chin...

(1) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,887.30.html

[mike tesko]

A police officer took possession of rifle "Y" from its original position of leaning up against the bedroom window, and used it as a prop to try and replicate how Sheila could have received the first and only bullet entry wound (PV/20) upon her throat at that stage. The rifle (Y) in question was laid upon her body with the muzzle of the rifle close to the entry wound of PV/20, and Sheila's right hand was placed on the trigger mechanism so that police could be satisfied that she could have shot herself - a police officer went though the motion of actually getting Sheila's fingers to press the trigger and this discharged the second bullet under her chin which actually killed her...

This is what really happened an how Sheila died inside the bedroom from a shot under the chin (bullet PV/19)...

[Patti]

It's in the record posted on this thread:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2506.0.html

Thank you Bridget. I can't find out where it tells you the weight of none spent bullets. You can tell from the weight that some of the bullets fragmented more that others..they weighed less. You would have thought they would have washed the bullets...but we are talking about medieval times ....lol 

[Bridget]

Thank you Bridget. I can't find out where it tells you the weight of none spent bullets. You can tell from the weight that some of the bullets fragmented more that others..they weighed less. You would have thought they would have washed the bullets...but we are talking about medieval times ....lol 

No, I don't know where Mike got that info from either. Are you suggesting that some may be heavier because of um.. stuff?

[Steve_uk]

A police officer took possession of rifle "Y" from its original position of leaning up against the bedroom window, and used it as a prop to try and replicate how Sheila could have received the first and only bullet entry wound (PV/20) upon her throat at that stage. The rifle (Y) in question was laid upon her body with the muzzle of the rifle close to the entry wound of PV/20, and Sheila's right hand was placed on the trigger mechanism so that police could be satisfied that she could have shot herself - a police officer went though the motion of actually getting Sheila's fingers to press the trigger and this discharged the second bullet under her chin which actually killed her...

This is what really happened an how Sheila died inside the bedroom from a shot under the chin (bullet PV/19)...

Is this the same rifle which was described as "stiff" by firearms experts,and the same rifle which WPC Jeapes had seen from outside..

[Patti]

No, I don't know where Mike got that info from either. Are you suggesting that some may be heavier because of um.. stuff?

Of course not. I think some could be heavier due to lack of fragmentation. Having looked at the documents weight varies considerably in grams. It also looks like the majority had mushroomed; which is most consistent with lead bullets. 

[Bridget]

Of course not. I think some could be heavier due to lack of fragmentation. Having looked at the documents weight varies considerably in grams. It also looks like the majority had mushroomed; which is most consistent with lead bullets. 

So Mike must be wrong then, when he says they all start out at 2.26g.

[Patti]

Is this the same rifle which was described as "stiff" by firearms experts,and the same rifle which WPC Jeapes had seen from outside..

Steve I dispute Jeaps and Myall seeing the rifle at the window of the main bedroom. Brown also saw rifle. The raid team were back at Head Quarters for 9:30 so it was impossible for Jeapes to have seen the rifle in the main bedroom. The way she describes her position that morning was on the white/red side, but she describes being mainly on the white side. Her description is of the box room which is imbetween the main bedroom and the twins room....I would have challenged this in court. 

[Patti]

So Mike must be wrong then, when he says they all start out at 2.26g.

I don't know how much they weighed Bridget. It is clear one of the bullets weighed in over that...

[Bridget]

Steve I dispute Jeaps and Myall seeing the rifle at the window of the main bedroom. Brown also saw rifle. The raid team were back at Head Quarters for 9:30 so it was impossible for Jeapes to have seen the rifle in the main bedroom. The way she describes her position that morning was on the white/red side, but she describes being mainly on the white side. Her description is of the box room which is imbetween the main bedroom and the twins room....I would have challenged this in court. 

I agree, she was talking about the box room. I've forgotten who Brown was though..

[Patti]

Sorry there are 5 spent bullet weighing over 2,26gms