Author Topic: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...  (Read 50966 times)

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Offline mike tesko

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #225 on: July 29, 2012, 10:52:AM »
I suppose so yes, although I'd suggest that a description of "whole in appearance" may be more accurate.

For example PV/29 weighed 2.13g, so did PV/19, PV/4 weighed 2.09g, PV/2 weighed 2.42g and DRH/9 weighed 1.67g, yet all are described as whole.

Were these other bullets also swapped around?

Some were, yes, along with corresponding numbers of bullet cases...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #226 on: July 29, 2012, 10:52:AM »
You've hit the nail on the head.  Whatever is provided, for example previously unseen excerpts of witness statements, crossed out dates, crossed out exhibit references, passages of original statements not helpful to the prosecution's case crossed out with NO written on them, bodies found downstairs UPON ENTRY with the CORRECT number of corresponding bodies later found upstairs, photographs with oxygenated blood, photographs with mat blood, photographs with the rifle here there and everyfuckingwhere, etc etc etc ... will never be good enough for you.  You talk about double helpings.  I think it's more a case of you and others swallowing a certain prosecution witness's anecdotes like mother's milk.

Carry on posting in the supercilious, haughty manner that you are famous for, I can guarantee you I'm not blushing in any way whatsoever.

No, I'm afraid it's not good enough for me, nor the CCRC nor the CoA, heck the majority of these leap of faith theories aren't even entertained by the the official defence team, past or present. I'm sorry that you've become so angry and are resorting to insults, it's rather unlike you.  :-\

Offline Roch

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #227 on: July 29, 2012, 10:58:AM »
No, I'm afraid it's not good enough for me, nor the CCRC nor the CoA, heck the majority of these leap of faith theories aren't even entertained by the the official defence team, past or present. I'm sorry that you've become so angry and are resorting to insults, it's rather unlike you.  :-\

Well if lies about who moved what during the crime scene photography are good enough for the CCRC , then what does that tell you about the CCRC?  :-\

You know exactly what you are doing when you work people on here... so please don't portray your self as Mr. Nice.  You forget, I've seen you do it hundreds of times.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 11:01:AM by Roch »

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #228 on: July 29, 2012, 11:05:AM »
Try here for starters, lab' reords for bullets PV/19 and PV/20:-

(1) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2506.0;attach=13765;image
(2) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4348;image

For all other information visit following thread link in the forum at :-

(3) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2506.0.html

How can bullet PV/20 referred to in these lab' records be described as a fragmented piece of bullet by Venezis in his witness statement / reports, and which corresponds in shape and size to anyone of the three main pieces of the fragmented bullet shown insitu inside Sheila's neck by reference to the X-ray?

Well, as previously alluded to, I'm not convinced that the xray shows what you are suggesting, unless a bullet weighing 2.4g fragmented into three pieces each weighing 1.54g?

Just thinking out loud, but the fact that all of this is in plain view in documents available to the defence from the outset, i.e. there has been no attempt to hide this, then it seems somewhat at odds with the accusation that there was a concerted effort to secretly swap out evidence in order to frame JB?

I mean seriously? Amongst those who believe Jeremy innocent, do you really buy into this bullet swapping theory? 

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #229 on: July 29, 2012, 11:13:AM »
Well if lies about who moved what during the crime scene photography are good enough for the CCRC , then what does that tell you about the CCRC?  :-\

You know exactly what you are doing when you work people on here... so please don't portray your self as Mr. Nice.  You forget, I've seen you do it hundreds of times.

I don't think so Roch, the suggestion that I am somehow working people seems to only come out when folk run out of arguments, it's simply not the case at all. I am merely putting my views across, politely I might add (regardless of my sarcasm), I've even very clearly stated that you do not have to agree with my views.

I'm sorry that you have for some reason taken offence or feel that you are being played, it is however a reaction I have witnessed on here a hundred times.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #230 on: July 29, 2012, 11:16:AM »
No, I'm afraid it's not good enough for me, nor the CCRC nor the CoA, heck the majority of these leap of faith theories aren't even entertained by the the official defence team, past or present.

I beg your pardon - contact Ewen Smith who is now a CCRC Commissioner and ask him what interest he took in all these ballistical irregularities and inconsistencies? Ask him how excited he was back at the beginning of 2004 before Jeremy sacked him, about the discovery of these anomalies relating to the batch of crime scene ammunition? He was over the moon and was about to submit arguments relating to this, but he got cut short because as I say Jeremy ceremoniously sacked him, and employed GDS as his legal advisor. You are therefore wrong when you say that none of his legal team were or are interested in such anomalies, because that was and is not the case. What you should also bear in mind is that at the last (2002) appeal, the judges indicated that because police had destroyed all the crime scene ammunition without consulting the defences or anybody, that if Bambers legal team wished to submit any ground of appeal which involved anything at all to do with the ballistics side of the case, that the court would look favourably upon such submissions - but because of such short notice, and the fact that by that stage nobody had looked into the possibility of all these inconsistencies amounting to anything, no such ground was submitted or rejected. This does not mean, however that such grounds cannot be revisited at a later date, such as now, especially because much of the work which was required to be undertaken and completed has now been done and researched. If such research had been carried out before the court of appeal sat in judgement (2002) and gave permission for the defence to forward any such argument, the court would have been hard pressed to reject such grounds by virtue of the indication that the court would look favourably upon any such ground submitted on Bambers behalf at that time / stage...

The position has not altered even though that sanction was given in 2002, and it is a decade down the road - because until now or when ever, no such ground has ever been submitted, but that does not mean that such a ground could not be submitted in the future, and it does not mean that the same concession as was offered then, will still not be relevant now, or whenever...

I should think the current legal team who are dealing with the silencer issue not being used when Sheila was shot twice in the neck, would be very interested in how the original fragmented bullet (PV/20) became transformed into a whole bullet so that the ballistic expert (Fletcher) could link it to rifle "Y", since the question of whether or not it was fired through a silencer fitted to the end of the rifles barrel, is an integral  part of their arguments?
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Roch

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #231 on: July 29, 2012, 11:17:AM »
I don't think so Roch, the suggestion that I am somehow working people seems to only come out when folk run out of arguments, it's simply not the case at all. I am merely putting my views across, politely I might add (regardless of my sarcasm), I've even very clearly stated that you do not have to agree with my views.

I'm sorry that you have for some reason taken offence or feel that you are being played, it is however a reaction I have witnessed on here a hundred times.

I don't think it's related to when folk run out of arguments at all.  You cannot argue with somebody whose whole game plan, is to refuse all arguments.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 11:21:AM by Roch »

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #232 on: July 29, 2012, 11:22:AM »
Well, as previously alluded to, I'm not convinced that the xray shows what you are suggesting, unless a bullet weighing 2.4g fragmented into three pieces each weighing 1.54g?

Just thinking out loud, but the fact that all of this is in plain view in documents available to the defence from the outset, i.e. there has been no attempt to hide this, then it seems somewhat at odds with the accusation that there was a concerted effort to secretly swap out evidence in order to frame JB?

I mean seriously? Amongst those who believe Jeremy innocent, do you really buy into this bullet swapping theory?

Hang on a minute - ask yourself a question. Was the original (PV/20) bullet, fragmented or not when it was X-rayed insitu before the autopsy? Ask another question - was it described as a fragmented bullet by the pathologist who removed it from the right side of Sheila's neck? Now ask yourself how such a bullet could possibly be described as a whole bullet by anyone, least of all a so called ballistic expert?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 11:43:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

-Harters-

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #233 on: July 29, 2012, 11:36:AM »
I don't think it's related to when folk run out of arguments at all.  You cannot argue with somebody who's whole game plan, is to refuse all arguments.

Again, I believe you are mistaken, I don't have a game plan, in fact I'm not even here to argue, I'm simply intrigued by the case.

My beliefs and views shared on this forum are genuinely held, I don't really see why you or anybody else gets so upset and confrontational simply because your views differ to mine.

All of your comments about being obtuse, biased or unwilling to accept any argument, could equally be applied to yourself and other JB supporters (usually the more fanatical ones), the big difference however is that I am not the one making the allegations.

To be perfectly honest, I think that you are being extremely unfair and quite rude to me during this particular exchange, and that is unusual for you.   

Offline Patti

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #234 on: July 29, 2012, 11:56:AM »
Hi guys. Hope I am not butting in, but it is clearly documented that Vanenzes said the bullet was fragmented upon striking the bone. Yet Fletcher stated the bullet was a whole one.  The xray backs up what Vanezes reported.  This is clearly another discrepancy and, one that can't be argued against, for it is well documented. Of course if this should be presented in a court of today, it would make a good argument however.  :) :) :) :)

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #235 on: July 29, 2012, 12:21:PM »
Hi guys. Hope I am not butting in, but it is clearly documented that Vanenzes said the bullet was fragmented upon striking the bone. Yet Fletcher stated the bullet was a whole one.  The xray backs up what Vanezes reported.  This is clearly another discrepancy and, one that can't be argued against, for it is well documented. Of course if this should be presented in a court of today, it would make a good argument however.  :) :) :) :)

An argument for what though? Do you not get the impression that a discrepancy has been discovered and then a story has been concocted and twisted to fit?

A very simple and unarguable response could be that the bullet was fragmented however the recovered fragment appeared whole. Or there is the old chestnut that the CCRC could simply say that whilst the inconsistancy is interesting, it is of no evidential value.

Unless there is further evidence to support a bullet swapping theory, then I'm not sure that there is much of a ground to argue here, perhaps that's why it has never been officially put forward by the defence.

Offline Bridget

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #236 on: July 29, 2012, 12:27:PM »
Doesn't this really hinge on what MDF means when he says 'whole'? Hartley has already pointed out the fact that there are numerous 'underweight' and damaged bullets listed as whole, and MDF actually uses the description 'virtually intact' for the one weighing 2.4g, which was also described as being whole. At what point of intactness does a bullet become not whole?
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline Roch

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #237 on: July 29, 2012, 12:27:PM »
Again, I believe you are mistaken, I don't have a game plan, in fact I'm not even here to argue, I'm simply intrigued by the case.

My beliefs and views shared on this forum are genuinely held, I don't really see why you or anybody else gets so upset and confrontational simply because your views differ to mine.

All of your comments about being obtuse, biased or unwilling to accept any argument, could equally be applied to yourself and other JB supporters (usually the more fanatical ones), the big difference however is that I am not the one making the allegations.

To be perfectly honest, I think that you are being extremely unfair and quite rude to me during this particular exchange, and that is unusual for you.

That's not how I'm picking this up at all.  I have always said that in your stance on the case, every single anomaly (the ones you care to address as opposed to the ones you ignore) is a benign mistake by an honest bobby or upstanding member of the community relative.  Your game plan is like a negative war of attrition, grinding down defence theories or arguments by a process of often nothing more than outright refusal.  I take my hat off to you if you can dismiss disputed theories or arguments by genuinely winning them.  That is a different matter altogether.  By the way, you're also very good at twisting  disagreements to make it look as if you are some kind of victim. 

I will accept a rebuke from Mike or ngb, if I am overstepping the mark with you.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #238 on: July 29, 2012, 12:31:PM »
Could you just spell out in layman's terms why the discrepancy in the bullets is so important and why,if Ewen Smith was on the verge of a breakthrough he was sacked as a legal representative by Jeremy Bamber?

Offline jon

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #239 on: July 29, 2012, 12:37:PM »
Doesn't this really hinge on what MDF means when he says 'whole'? Hartley has already pointed out the fact that there are numerous 'underweight' and damaged bullets listed as whole, and MDF actually uses the description 'virtually intact' for the one weighing 2.4g, which was also described as being whole. At what point of intactness does a bullet become not whole?
Do you know of any other case where the police have destroyed material , when told not to by a
court ? Do you read anything into them doing so in this case ?