Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...

[maggie]

Yes that was the simplicity of it..darkness,nobody around,a woman's bicycle,how could anyone suspect?

I think the fact it was a 'woman's' bicycle is an irrelevance, surely a bike's a bike but it was pretty old fashioned and basic.  Have you tried to ride across arable farming land at night without any light?  It's pretty much impossible, apart from damage to yourself the chain would be off in no time.

[susan]

Hi Maggie  think the relatives checked the bike for any evidence it had been used cross country and if it had have been they would have found traces of matching soil they were very good at detective work and if they had found traces they would have had it tested by a forensic expert.

[susan]

Help Come Back Grahame We Need You

[maggie]

Hi Maggie  think the relatives checked the bike for any evidence it had been used cross country and if it had have been they would have found traces of matching soil they were very good at detective work and if they had found traces they would have had it tested by a forensic expert.
[/quoteIt is so true susie, the slightest speck would have been examined.

[susan]

Hi Mags  if evidence had been traced on June's bike it certainly would have been presented in Court with the other evidence and I use that term very loosely.

[boheme]

I initially favoured this view boheme but eventually dismissed it. There were two patrol cars dispatched by Police after two calls which in my opinion were both made by Jeremy to the Police,not to 999 numbers which he thought might have been recorded by the BT operator,but to Chelmsford and Witham Police stations. The nearest Police station was Witham which was 7 miles away from White House Farm so any hitman would have had ample time to scarper before they arrived. I also think the hitman plan was just too risky for Jeremy as he would have had to pay him off for life,and anyway in Jeremy's thinking it wasn't necessary as he knew the layout of the farm and could do the job better than anybody. I think Jeremy sensed a hesitation in Julie and made up the hitman theory to spare her feelings(he was still helping her to move flat even after the argument they had).

The point about the telephone calls was that Jeremy in devising the wording used in the calls limits the suspects to either Sheila or himself-if you believe that Ralph(Nevill) was in the kitchen,unarmed and staying that way whilst Sheila was running amok with a gun around the farmhouse and his two grandchildren asleep upstairs, telephones Jeremy first before the Police then it is Sheila who is the culprit. If you think that there's no physical evidence that Nevill did make the call then you're back to suspecting Jeremy. I think Jeremy tried to keep it as simple as possible,hence the planted gun,the telephones mysteriously going dead after just a few words. I also think that had Jeremy used a hitman he didn't need to be at Goldhanger cottage at all that night-why not arrange to spend the night with a friend in London and just wait by a telephone box every half hour say for a call to come through saying the deed had been done?

I don't quite follow your timing theory because had a hitman been primed by Jeremy about where the rifle was,layout of the farm and so on there didn't need to be a telephone call to the Police at all. Jeremy saw a window of opportunity to commit the murders between the Sunday and the Wednesday,hence his call to Julie "tonight's the night",cynically knowing that it would be his last chance for some time to do away with his family and thus becoming the sole beneficiary of his parents' estate.

OK, yes its possible, but how do you account for the person in the window seen by Bews and JB, if it was not the killer who was it ? If it was Sheila JB could not have killed them all.... this is my sticking point to the JB did it theory, plus the lack of damage to him..

In his plan there had to be a call to the Police, thats the whole point, someone had to provide the Police with proof that it was 4 murders and a suicide, otherwise they would think it was 5 murders, the fact that it took 2 shots to kill Sheila was already suspicious, that call was made to reinforce the idea that she had gone crazy and killed everyone including herself....

As for who and why JB managed to persuade someone to do the deed we may never know... I don't believe the 2000 GBP payout for a minute, there must have been a lot more to it than that.... 

[Roch]

OK, yes its possible, but how do you account for the person in the window seen by Bews and JB, if it was not the killer who was it ? If it was Sheila JB could not have killed them all.... this is my sticking point to the JB did it theory, plus the lack of damage to him..

In his plan there had to be a call to the Police, thats the whole point, someone had to provide the Police with proof that it was 4 murders and a suicide, otherwise they would think it was 5 murders, the fact that it took 2 shots to kill Sheila was already suspicious, that call was made to reinforce the idea that she had gone crazy and killed everyone including herself....

As for who and why JB managed to persuade someone to do the deed we may never know... I don't believe the 2000 GBP payout for a minute, there must have been a lot more to it than that....

I'd be interested in Steve's opinions of why EP have stated that the first page of the event log, which includes the alleged sighting  / trick of the light incident has been lost.   Very convenient.   It was only a trick of the light but the first page relating to it only being a trick of the light, has had to be ditched?

[-Harters-]

I'd be interested in Steve's opinions of why EP have stated that the first page of the event log, which includes the alleged sighting  / trick of the light incident has been lost.   Very convenient.   It was only a trick of the light but the first page relating to it only being a trick of the light, has had to be ditched?

Where has that been stated Roch? Just so we can see the source.

Obviously Rivlin referred to the trick of light at the original trial whilst cross examining PS Myall, indeed Rivlin actually came up with the "trick of light" description. Where do you think he got the information from? Myalls statement perhaps?

[jim ignatowski]

Jim it takes 10 minutes from White House Farm to Goldhanger Cottage cutting across farmland on the bicycle.

hi steve
that's why i said that if the phone calls were only a FEW (ie (say) 3) minutes minutes apart!!!
jim

[Roch]

Where has that been stated Roch? Just so we can see the source.

Obviously Rivlin referred to the trick of light at the original trial whilst cross examining PS Myall, indeed Rivlin actually came up with the "trick of light" description. Where do you think he got the information from? Myalls statement perhaps?

(b18)

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2441.0.html

Jam, I do not know where Rivlin got his info from.  Is Myall's statement one of the statements that you have asked Mike for?

[-Harters-]

(b18)

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2441.0.html

Jam, I do not know where Rivlin got his info from.  Is Myall's statement one of the statements that you have asked Mike for?

Thanks, I'm guessing you meant page B19.




Forgive me for being pedantic, but that hardly equates to what you posted:

I'd be interested in Steve's opinions of why EP have stated that the first page of the event log, which includes the alleged sighting  / trick of the light incident has been lost.   Very convenient.   It was only a trick of the light but the first page relating to it only being a trick of the light, has had to be ditched?

I'd hazard a guess that the detailed logs simply didn't start until CA07 conveyed their preliminary assessment of the scene back to HQ, rather than a page going missing.

I'd also take an unpublished defence biased manuscript with a certain amount of salt, unless particular details could be corroborated elsewhere.

The defence can request that something should be released, but if that 'something' doesn't exist then the request can't really be complied with. It could be convenient for the defence, or rather supporters of the defence to play on this and cry conspiracy. Of course if the item in question does or did exist, and that could be proven, then there would quite rightly be grounds for concern.

Yes, Myalls statement is one of the ones I've requested from Mike on several occasions, I'd suggest that it is a little concerning that he is reluctant to post the statements of the first police officers to attend the scene. I can't think of a legitimate reason for keeping them hidden from members of the forum.

Just to pre-empt, a response that he is just doing what the CCRC are doing by withholding documents, simply doesn't cut it for me.

[Steve_uk]

Hi Maggie  think the relatives checked the bike for any evidence it had been used cross country and if it had have been they would have found traces of matching soil they were very good at detective work and if they had found traces they would have had it tested by a forensic expert.

Yes they would have been as thorough forensically as they had been with all the other evidence. Wasn't there a sea wall whereby no soil would be present..don't forget the time Jeremy was allegedly flicking through the Yellow Pages to find a Police number..he could have washed himself and the bicycle with time to spare.

[Steve_uk]

OK, yes its possible, but how do you account for the person in the window seen by Bews and JB, if it was not the killer who was it ? If it was Sheila JB could not have killed them all.... this is my sticking point to the JB did it theory, plus the lack of damage to him..

In his plan there had to be a call to the Police, thats the whole point, someone had to provide the Police with proof that it was 4 murders and a suicide, otherwise they would think it was 5 murders, the fact that it took 2 shots to kill Sheila was already suspicious, that call was made to reinforce the idea that she had gone crazy and killed everyone including herself....

As for who and why JB managed to persuade someone to do the deed we may never know... I don't believe the 2000 GBP payout for a minute, there must have been a lot more to it than that....

Well Jeremy was stuck with the telephone idea which gave him his alibi at the expense of the Police because he was tied to working at the farm for those days whilst they were harvesting. If you think about it there didn't really need to be a telephone call otherwise as the scene was obviously going to be examined forensically and it was not the Police's job to go around pinning blame on Jeremy,who would have been a suspect simply because he was the main beneficiary of the estate.

[Roch]

Thanks, I'm guessing you meant page B19.




Forgive me for being pedantic, but that hardly equates to what you posted:

I'd hazard a guess that the detailed logs simply didn't start until CA07 conveyed their preliminary assessment of the scene back to HQ, rather than a page going missing.

I'd also take an unpublished defence biased manuscript with a certain amount of salt, unless particular details could be corroborated elsewhere.

The defence can request that something should be released, but if that 'something' doesn't exist then the request can't really be complied with. It could be convenient for the defence, or rather supporters of the defence to play on this and cry conspiracy. Of course if the item in question does or did exist, and that could be proven, then there would quite rightly be grounds for concern.

I think I've pretty much portrayed accurately the meaning of what Hunter states in the above relevant para.  If people want to go along with the concept of Hunter making up that an official response was that the page has been lost, then that is up to them.  Personally I don't go along with the idea that he would do so, merely because he supports the defence.  In fact I think the suggestion is insulting.  I asked Mike if there was a source document that accompanied Hunter's manuscript and he said he might be able to find one.  No offence but it's a pity you don't apply the same skeptical scrutiny to edited, composite, unsigned and changing prosecution witness statements.  They seem to be the gospel truth.

There is no way the police can allow the radio message relating to a potential sighting of a figure at the window, to be available.  it would simply undermine their prosecution of Bamber.  We have seen another document not supportive to their prosecution of Bamber, crossed in ink with the word "NO" written across it.  So I don't have much faith in the idea that the police didn't filter out anything that would cause real problems to their case. 

[susan]

Wow steve I never thought of that he could have had a shower flicked through the yellow pages disposed of his clothes so the police could not find them then take the bike and really wash it down flicked through the yellow pages sorry he did that earlier he would need to dry the bike off do you know if Jeremy had neighbours at Goldhanger.