Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...

[Roch]

No because it was suggested by forensics that Sheil's blood had congealed or caked and that when Police took the rifle from the body Sheila's head might have tipped slightly thereby disturbing the plugs of blood which then began streaming again sideways down her face.

Where is this suggested by forensics?

The thing is, according to the police they didn't take the rifle from her body... until it was finally removed and made safe.... at which time?

Also, if the wet blood stream is merely a secondary release of blood caused by the movement of her head, why does the stream follow the exact path of the initial stream which supposedly proceeded it?  Did police accidentally move her head in exactly the same direction as it moved upon her receiving the second shot?   

[Steve_uk]

You forget that there existed a metered call log for the calls made from whf and that the call made by Ralph to Jeremy's cottage is recorded and documented in that log? What significance then if there was any such evidence that the tape to his answer phone had been wiped as alleged by you, since if this was true the detail in the metered call log, and the fact that the tape had been wiped from his answer machine would have been evidence which the prosecution would have sought to rely upon during the trial, but since no such wiping of the tape took place, there was no desire to bring attention to the existence of the metered call log from whf which proved such a call was made...

All the metered call log would show was that a telephone call had been made from White House Farm to  Jeremy's cottage at Goldhanger;it would not prove that Ralph(Nevill) was the instigator nor that Jeremy was sitting at home whilst the call was made as there was an answerphone in place at Jeremy's end during which the alleged call took place. As for Jeremy having wiped the tape,how do we know he didn't just destroy the tape with the telephone call he made and substitute a blank tape into the answerphone? I might also say it's suspicious that Jeremy answered a call in the middle of the night anyhow if he'd had such a hard day harvesting at the farm,I know I would either have been fast asleep or just wouldn't have bothered to pick up,but of course this was all part of Jeremy's plan to use the Police as his alibi..

[Moe Cassani]

No because it was suggested by forensics that Sheil's blood had congealed or caked and that when Police took the rifle from the body Sheila's head might have tipped slightly thereby disturbing the plugs of blood which then began streaming again sideways down her face.

A very good point Steve,
Well worthy of consideration. The whole police conspiracy theory may be built on this very point.

[Roch]

Moe slapping Steve's back already?  That didn't take long.  You two don't already know each other by any chance do you? 

[Steve_uk]

Where is this suggested by forensics?

The thing is, according to the police they didn't take the rifle from her body... until it was finally removed and made safe.... at which time?

Also, if the wet blood stream is merely a secondary release of blood caused by the movement of her head, why does the stream follow the exact path of the initial stream which supposedly proceeded it?  Did police accidentally move her head in exactly the same direction as it moved upon her receiving the second shot?

It may not have been suggested by forensics..I'm looking.. there is a suggestion on the Crime,Hearts,and Coronets article by Police so sorry if I misled. The relevant part by Police not forensics is here:

"A consistent feature of objections to the Crown case is that they rest upon arguments from personal incredulity. Surely the blood on Sheila’s neck couldn’t look as “fresh” as it does in the photographs if she’d been dead for at least six hours?

Well, yes, it could. Officers observed that wet blood had pooled in the crook of Sheila’s right arm. Congealed blood had also formed in the aperture of the lower neck wound. One possibility is that when Sheila was moved by officers at the scene, this plug became detached, and allowed blood accumulated within Sheila’s neck, viscous but not yet congealed, to run thickly beyond the entrance of the wound."

[Moe Cassani]

Moe slapping Steve's back already?  That didn't take long.  You two don't already know each other by any chance do you? 

No I do not know Steve. I am intrigued by his viewpoint and it does make some sense. I was under the impression that this was a forum for discussion about the case and I would like to hear the viewpoints from both sides.

[Roch]

It may not have been suggested by forensics..I'm looking.. there is a suggestion on the Crime,Hearts,and Coronets article by Police so sorry if I misled. The relevant part by Police not forensics is here:

"A consistent feature of objections to the Crown case is that they rest upon arguments from personal incredulity. Surely the blood on Sheila’s neck couldn’t look as “fresh” as it does in the photographs if she’d been dead for at least six hours?

Well, yes, it could. Officers observed that wet blood had pooled in the crook of Sheila’s right arm. Congealed blood had also formed in the aperture of the lower neck wound. One possibility is that when Sheila was moved by officers at the scene, this plug became detached, and allowed blood accumulated within Sheila’s neck, viscous but not yet congealed, to run thickly beyond the entrance of the wound."

So they photographed her initially with semi-congealed blood, then moved her... and then photographed her again with wet blood, which just happened to take the exact same path as the initial flow?  Why does the first wound not follow suit?

[Roch]

No I do not know Steve. I am intrigued by his viewpoint and it does make some sense. I was under the impression that this was a forum for discussion about the case and I would like to hear the viewpoints from both sides.

The whole police conspiracy theory

Your use of this phrase is quite telling.

[Steve_uk]

So they photographed her initially with semi-congealed blood, then moved her... and then photographed her again with wet blood, which just happened to take the exact same path as the initial flow?  Why does the first wound not follow suit?

Well I'm checking..remember it's the Jeremy supporters' claim that Sheila is running amok in a house full of blood,shooting herself once in the kitchen,, reloading rifles,bashing Ralph(Nevill) over the head, running upstairs for ablutions,smoking cigars,writing suicide notes..for my part it looks like she's unaware of everything that morning and lies down by the bedside cabinet where Jeremy shoots her,then realizing that he hadn't killed her outright with a rifle meant to shoot rabbits had to ensure that the second shot was fatal.

[maggie]

Well I'm checking..remember it's the Jeremy supporters' claim that Sheila is running amok in a house full of blood,shooting herself once in the kitchen,running upstairs for ablutions, reloading rifles,bashing Ralph(Nevill) over the head,smoking cigars,writing suicide notes..for my part it looks like she's unaware of everything that morning and lies down by the bedside cabinet where Jeremy shoots her,then realizing that he hadn't killed her outright with a rifle meant to shoot rabbits had to ensure that the second shot was fatal.

Steve why should Sheila lie down and be unaware of anything? She wasnt drugged, why would she do that. A paranoid scizophrenic would very likely be extremely withdrawn , as described by various people the evening before, that is usual behaviour before a psychotic episode as the pressure is building.

[Roch]

Well I'm checking..remember it's the Jeremy supporters' claim that Sheila is running amok in a house full of blood,shooting herself once in the kitchen,, reloading rifles,bashing Ralph(Nevill) over the head, running upstairs for ablutions,smoking cigars,writing suicide notes..for my part it looks like she's unaware of everything that morning and lies down by the bedside cabinet where Jeremy shoots her,then realizing that he hadn't killed her outright with a rifle meant to shoot rabbits had to ensure that the second shot was fatal.

Jeremy Bamber supporters club?  You are beginning to get insulting.  Why would anyone other than those more inclined towards defence arguments, 'support' Jeremy Bamber?   

Would it be better if we were in the Starryian supporters club?  Then we could wax lyrical about how a man planned to obtain inheritance by manipulating his trainee junior school teacher, first in to ignoring his overtures about killing his family, then allow her to inspect his handiwork at the mortuary, yet still remain unconcerned / unenlightened?  Some plan that isn't it?  Perhaps he realised she was so thick skulled, that she would (a)  not cotton on; b) not care; c) not say a dickie bird?  At no point when hatching this master plan does he conceive that there is a risk of category A prison, with the added bonus of 'child killer' hung around his neck? 

[Steve_uk]

Steve why should Sheila lie down and be unaware of anything? She wasnt drugged, why would she do that. A paranoid scizophrenic would very likely be extremely withdrawn , as described by various people the evening before, that is usual behaviour before a psychotic episode as the pressure is building.

The last external witness to have spoken to Sheila was Pamela Boutflour(Auntie Pam)who she did not as usual say goodnight to on the telephone(Pamela described Sheila as a "zombie"). I think that when Jeremy realized that Sheila was in such a state(she still had traces of Haloperidol in her system so she was drugged)he took advantage,telephoned Julie that "it's now or never" and put the plan into operation.

[maggie]

The last external witness to have spoken to Sheila was Pamela Boutflour(Auntie Pam)who she did not as usual say goodnight to on the telephone(Pamela described Sheila as a "zombie"). I think that when Jeremy realized that Sheila was in such a state(she still had traces of Haloperidol in her system so she was drugged)he took advantage,telephoned Julie that "it's now or never" and put the plan into operation.

No steve it is a fact that a warning sign of a psychotic episode approaching for a paranoid schizophrenic is withdrawal from life. Sheila was possibly exhibiting classic signs. Jeremy had been harvesting for days why on earth would he choose a time when he was no doubt physically shattered to stay up all night and execute this physically and mentally exhausting crime. If you look at it holistically, it just simplt makes no sense.

[Steve_uk]

Jeremy Bamber supporters club?  You are beginning to get insulting.  Why would anyone other than those more inclined towards defence arguments, 'support' Jeremy Bamber?   

Would it be better if we were in the Starryian supporters club?  Then we could wax lyrical about how a man planned to obtain inheritance by manipulating his trainee junior school teacher, first in to ignoring his overtures about killing his family, then allow her to inspect his handiwork at the mortuary, yet still remain unconcerned / unenlightened?  Some plan that isn't it?  Perhaps he realised she was so thick skulled, that she would (a)  not cotton on; b) not care; c) not say a dickie bird?  At no point when hatching this master plan does he conceive that there is a risk of category A prison, with the added bonus of 'child killer' hung around his neck?

Well I invented the phrase "Jeremy supporters" to counter the acronym BGB(Bamber Guilty Brigade) which suggests similar malfeasance.As for Jeremy himself,he was not an intellectual as he failed his O Levels on his first attempt from all the small group teaching and privilege access to a public school brought.

[Moe Cassani]

Your use of this phrase is quite telling.

Well it is a theory isnt it?