Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...

[lookout]

A very interesting theory Steve,
some very good points. I am not certain that a killer would risk leaving the scene with one of his victims still alive and able to positively identify him? If it was Jeremy then I am sure he would have to be certain that Sheila was, in fact, dead. If you take the view that Jeremy was responsible then his slow car journey to White House Farm was an attempt to arrive after the police as he would have wanted to make it abundantly clear that he was not present at the farm when the murders took place. He would also have time to prime the police and ensure they accepted his version of events.
However, if you take the view that he is innocent then this slow journey may have been due to his apprehension about driving to the farmhouse in the middle of the night on his own with a deranged woman inside with a loaded rifle.

Jeremy was frightened at what he was going to be faced with at the farmhouse. That lad was scared of his own shadow,,,so how he got blamed for the murders,I'll never know,,except that there was a conspiracy going on between the police and the relatives at a later date.

[Steve_uk]

Jeremy was frightened at what he was going to be faced with at the farmhouse. That lad was scared of his own shadow,,,so how he got blamed for the murders,I'll never know,,except that there was a conspiracy going on between the police and the relatives at a later date.

Lookout you're completely disregarding Julie Mugford's statement to the Police,which I would urge you and other Jeremy supporters to scrutinize and discuss,before telling us why you think it is that none of Julie's social circle at the time or 27 years later even after she received a £25,000 cheque from the News of the World have ever impugned the integrity of.

[lookout]

Lookout you're completely disregarding Julie Mugford's statement to the Police,which I would urge you and other Jeremy supporters to scrutinize and discuss,before telling us why you think it is that none of Julie's social circle at the time or 27 years later even after she received a £25,000 cheque from the News of the World have ever impugned the integrity of.

Steve,,,I'm not the least interested in Julie Mugfords' statements. 32 were there.? All different.
What makes you think that I'm going to listen to what you have to say,anyway.?

[Moe Cassani]

Jeremy was frightened at what he was going to be faced with at the farmhouse. That lad was scared of his own shadow,,,so how he got blamed for the murders,I'll never know,,except that there was a conspiracy going on between the police and the relatives at a later date.

OK......an interesting idea. How come you choose to believe a complex conspiracy amongst the relatives AND police but aspects of the case that are far more plausible, you dont?
I am just asking this out of interest Lookout. Your views are your views and I respect that.
 

[lookout]

OK......an interesting idea. How come you choose to believe a complex conspiracy amongst the relatives AND police but aspects of the case that are far more plausible, you dont?
I am just asking this out of interest Lookout. Your views are your views and I respect that.
 

Moe Cassini,,,don't think for one minute that I'm " blinkered " about this case,,because I'm not. You see,,I remember this case on television and also the newspapers back in 1985. I had made up my mind then that Jeremy wasn't the killer,,,and thinking how easy it was for the police to blame him because he was the only one left out of that immediate family.
I was of the same belief as " Taff " Jones,,the officer leading the enquiry,,that it was a case of 4 murders and a suicide and that was that.
What followed was a complete conspiracy and a means to justify the fact that this case wasn't going to " slip through their fingers " like the Diane Jones murder,which had happened a couple of years before and which the police bungled.

However,,if Jeremy had pleaded guilty,,he'd have been out of prison now,,,so why do you think,,after all these years,he hasn't wanted to.? He knows himself,,that he could possibly have been free,,,but on principle,,because of his continued pleas of innocence,he's chosen to be honest to the point of risking further sentencing. Does this sound like a murderer.?

[mike tesko]

As for Jeremy and his shooting of Sheila,he can't hang around and wait until he knows she is dead because the clock is on him and this is one part of the plan which he couldn't rehearse. He just has to get back to Goldhanger through farmland,erase the tape which has the phone call he made to himself from the kitchen at White House Farm,then waste as much time as he can hoping that by the time the Police enter that Sheila is dead.

Jeremy had no control over the time it would take the police to force their way in to the farmhouse - if they had gone in straight away and Jeremy had long since already killed all his family the evidence would have been there for all to see. There is no way on gods green earth that Jeremy had a say in when the police went in, or what they might find if the went in early rather than later...

[mike tesko]

As for Jeremy and his shooting of Sheila,he can't hang around and wait until he knows she is dead because the clock is on him and this is one part of the plan which he couldn't rehearse. He just has to get back to Goldhanger through farmland,erase the tape which has the phone call he made to himself from the kitchen at White House Farm,then waste as much time as he can hoping that by the time the Police enter that Sheila is dead.

You forget that there existed a metered call log for the calls made from whf and that the call made by Ralph to Jeremy's cottage is recorded and documented in that log? What significance then if there was any such evidence that the tape to his answer phone had been wiped as alleged by you, since if this was true the detail in the metered call log, and the fact that the tape had been wiped from his answer machine would have been evidence which the prosecution would have sought to rely upon during the trial, but since no such wiping of the tape took place, there was no desire to bring attention to the existence of the metered call log from whf which proved such a call was made...

[mike tesko]

What you have in this case is a key exhibit (DRH/15) that was nkt anywhere near Sheila's body at about 7:15am, or to be as specific as I can be, the rifle which fired the fatal shot under the chin, was resting up against the bedroom window before poluce set foot into the premises. Bearing this in mind, who moved the rifle which fired fatal bullet PV/19, from the window onto Sheila's body? Exactly how did Jeremy manage to pull that little miracle off then?

[jim ignatowski]

You forget that there existed a metered call log for the calls made from whf and that the call made by Ralph to Jeremy's cottage is recorded and documented in that log? What significance then if there was any such evidence that the tape to his answer phone had been wiped as alleged by you, since if this was true the detail in the metered call log, and the fact that the tape had been wiped from his answer machine would have been evidence which the prosecution would have sought to rely upon during the trial, but since no such wiping of the tape took place, there was no desire to bring attention to the existence of the metered call log from whf which proved such a call was made...

Hi Mike
As I have previously indicated, if the phone logs show a phone call made from WHF in the middle of the night and also show a phone call made from Jeremy's residence a few minutes later (within the time period a motor car could drive between the properties), Jeremy will walk free.
Please, please, please forward the phone logs to Jeremy's legal team
Jim

[Moe Cassani]

Moe Cassini,,,don't think for one minute that I'm " blinkered " about this case,,because I'm not. You see,,I remember this case on television and also the newspapers back in 1985. I had made up my mind then that Jeremy wasn't the killer,,,and thinking how easy it was for the police to blame him because he was the only one left out of that immediate family.
I was of the same belief as " Taff " Jones,,the officer leading the enquiry,,that it was a case of 4 murders and a suicide and that was that.
What followed was a complete conspiracy and a means to justify the fact that this case wasn't going to " slip through their fingers " like the Diane Jones murder,which had happened a couple of years before and which the police bungled.

However,,if Jeremy had pleaded guilty,,he'd have been out of prison now,,,so why do you think,,after all these years,he hasn't wanted to.? He knows himself,,that he could possibly have been free,,,but on principle,,because of his continued pleas of innocence,he's chosen to be honest to the point of risking further sentencing. Does this sound like a murderer.?

Lookout please dont think that I assume that you were 'blinkered' in any way. I do however, find it a little strange that you had already made up your mind from television and newspaper reports, before the case was tried. However, your reasoning I agree with.
However, you have not really given me a reason for a wholesale police conspiracy concerning the case. Conspiracies are always difficult to keep under wraps, but this does not feel like a conspiracy to me. To blame him because he was the sole survivor has no substance. Why would they want to blame him when they had a perfectly good suspect in Sheila Caffell? I dont get it? Please explain and I hope that this can enlighten me somewhat as to your reasoning.
Thanks again

[Moe Cassani]

I think there were two sets of photographs Roch. I can't understand why some photographs had been hidden from the Defence until 2004 which is unacceptable,as is the destruction of other forensic evidence such as Sheila's nightie which I think was in 1996.

As for Jeremy and his shooting of Sheila,he can't hang around and wait until he knows she is dead because the clock is on him and this is one part of the plan which he couldn't rehearse. He just has to get back to Goldhanger through farmland,erase the tape which has the phone call he made to himself from the kitchen at White House Farm,then waste as much time as he can hoping that by the time the Police enter that Sheila is dead.

I understand this Steve, but what time frame is he working to? Surely if he is guilty HE would set the time frame. Theoretically he could have waited all night - who was to know? He didnt need to get back to his house in Goldhanger at any specific time. The phone call came to the police station at 3:26am That was surely the time that he had finished his grisly work - however if not it could be a few hours later - why not?

[Roch]

I think there were two sets of photographs Roch. I can't understand why some photographs had been hidden from the Defence until 2004 which is unacceptable,as is the destruction of other forensic evidence such as Sheila's nightie which I think was in 1996.

Steve, are you in agreement that if the same stream of blood from the wound is photographed both wet and matt, it must follow that original photographs must have been the wet ones?

[Steve_uk]

Steve,,,I'm not the least interested in Julie Mugfords' statements. 32 were there.? All different.
What makes you think that I'm going to listen to what you have to say,anyway.?

Well as I said a few days ago this conviction rests on two pillars: the silencer evidence and Julie Mugford's evidence. Having trawled through Andrew Hunter's book draft which is not an easy read I have to admit that people on this site have not done a bad job in relation to that first "pillar" of evidence. If only you and other individuals worked just as diligently on the Julie Mugford statement which is shocking in demonstrating a sustained wish on behalf of Jeremy in the last year running up to the murders to cause harm to his family you might find that the key to opening Jeremy's cell door is opened that bit quicker.

[Steve_uk]

Steve, are you in agreement that if the same stream of blood from the wound is photographed both wet and matt, it must follow that original photographs must have been the wet ones?

No because it was suggested by forensics that Sheil's blood had congealed or caked and that when Police took the rifle from the body Sheila's head might have tipped slightly thereby disturbing the plugs of blood which then began streaming again sideways down her face.

[Roch]

Having trawled through Andrew Hunter's book draft which is not an easy read

Fair play to you for bothering to read it.