Author Topic: Sheila attempted to commit suicide (but failed), and was shot by the police...  (Read 52981 times)

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Offline mike tesko

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Perhaps, but Mike's suggestion was that their policy of sending in a PS to assess the situation first delayed the calling in of the firearms team and may have cost lives. What I'm saying is that had they have sent in a firearms team earlier there's no reason to think that the decsions made concerning when to enter would have been any different - I mean, they sat around for a couple of hours or more anyway, why would it have been any different if they'd have arrived a half hour earlier?

Well, I should think that would be obvious - for example, if the firearms team had been deployed to the scene immediately instead of sending say the occupants of CA07, the firearms team would have seen the figure moving around inside the bedroom, and may have attempted and succeeded in communicating with that person, and if that person was the eventual killer, they may have been able to persuade that person, not to kill anyone, or to attempt to kill themselves. Lets put it another way, if the firearms team had been deployed to the scene immediately instead of the occupants of CA07, they might have looked in through the Kitchen window whilst the person was moving around upstairs and they may have been able to see two bodies, or one body in the region of the kitchen. If they had forced their way into the premises at that time, they may have been able to discredit Bambers claim that he had very recently received a call from his father, because Ralph might have long since already been dead? Alternatively, they might have found him to still be alive (yet wounded) and he may have been able to tell the firearms officers what had taken place...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Steve_uk

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Sheila attempted to commit suicide (but failed), and was shot by the police...

To save confusion about what I am saying took place, I would simply like to mention that I believe that Sheila tried to take her own life downstairs in the region of the kitchen, but as it turned out she failed (this is what the officers report, 1612, refers to). She was actually shot upstairs in the bedroom by the police and her body was moved from the bed to the bedroom floor and stage managed to try and suggest that she had taken her own life - the stage managing was done by the police, and photographic records altered to facilitate the cover up...

This is the reason why Essex police edited out 358 photographs and created a false MASTER COPY ALBUM, containing only 223 pictures, when 581 had been actually taken...

In Andrew Hunter's book draft he depicts a scenario where Sheila and Ralph(Nevill) are struggling with the rifle in the kitchen,which would explain the scratch marks on the underside of the mantlepiece and also the gouge marks to Nevill's forearm. In this scenario the gun goes off injuring Sheila in the right hand side of the neck. This struggle would have taken place after the telephone call which Nevill made to Jeremy and would explain why there was no blood on the phone.

However with Sheila incapacitated for a time with a bullet wound one wonders why Nevill does not go to the gun den or downstairs toilet and avail himself of a weapon in this life and death situation he now finds himself in. Sheila would also have to remove the silencer and replace it in the gun cupboard before proceeding upstairs and shooting herself a second time.

Offline mike tesko

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In Andrew Hunter's book draft he depicts a scenario where Sheila and Ralph(Nevill) are struggling with the rifle in the kitchen,which would explain the scratch marks on the underside of the mantlepiece

Trouble is, additional scratch marks were made on the aga surround on 12th September 1985, as proven by reference to photographs taken in the kitchen on the morning of the shootings (7th August 1985), on 11th September 1985, and on 12th September 1985. There wasn't enough room between the overturned table and the aga surround for two people to be involved in the kind of struggle you are referring to. Any marks which could have been present on the underside of the aga surround had been made by the barrel of a different gun (according to DS Davidsons account which he gave to COLP as part of their 1991 investigation). If you take the time and trouble to read what Davidson says you will soon realize that COLP elicited the fact that a paint sample had been taken from the aga because some paint had been found on the end of a guns barrel which was not a reference to paint found on the end of a silencer? I do not think that any mark was made anywhere on the aga surround by a silencer striking it, until it did so on 12th September 1985, and there is no evidence to prove there was any red paint present on the end of any silencer before that date - if there is please refer me to it....
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Sheila would also have to remove the silencer and replace it in the gun cupboard before proceeding upstairs and shooting herself a second time.

Well, again you miss the point about the seizure of four exhibits from the scene by DS "Stan" Jones, bearing the identifying marks of SBJ/4, SBJ/3, SBJ/2 and SBJ/1, which he took possession of downstairs on 7th August 1985. These exhibits were found or retained downstairs in the region of the kitchen, and the downstairs toilet (where Pargeters gun and silencer was normally kept). Now, as you know, the silencer was initially identifiable by the exhibit reference SBJ/1, so by applying just a wee bit of common sense and logic, which silencer was that then? Please do not tyry and convince me that police made a boo boo, and got mixed up with giving the silencer which was later found by relatives an exhibit reference that clashed with different exhibits found by witnesses with the same identifying marks, because SBJ/1 (the original silencer) was seized by DS "Stan" Jones, on the morning of 7th August 1985, it could not have been the same silencer the relatives claim they found in the gun cupboard on 10th August 1985? Look, to save any confusion, please ti=ell me, or try to find out what exhibit did DS Jones seize at the scene on 7th August 19895, bearing the exhibit reference SBJ/1...

It's not too much to ask for, is it?

What was DS "Stan" Jones, exhibit bearing the identifying mark of SBJ/1?

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Bridget

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In Andrew Hunter's book draft he depicts a scenario where Sheila and Ralph(Nevill) are struggling with the rifle in the kitchen,which would explain the scratch marks on the underside of the mantlepiece and also the gouge marks to Nevill's forearm. In this scenario the gun goes off injuring Sheila in the right hand side of the neck. This struggle would have taken place after the telephone call which Nevill made to Jeremy and would explain why there was no blood on the phone.

However with Sheila incapacitated for a time with a bullet wound one wonders why Nevill does not go to the gun den or downstairs toilet and avail himself of a weapon in this life and death situation he now finds himself in. Sheila would also have to remove the silencer and replace it in the gun cupboard before proceeding upstairs and shooting herself a second time.

If she was incapacitated why wouldn't he just take the gun off her? I have a hard time picturing a father arming himself against his daughter in any case.
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Offline Steve_uk

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If she was incapacitated why wouldn't he just take the gun off her? I have a hard time picturing a father arming himself against his daughter in any case.

He would have to be near death himself. I'm just trying to establish a scenario where all eventualities are considered and it's frustrating.

Offline Bridget

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He would have to be near death himself. I'm just trying to establish a scenario where all eventualities are considered and it's frustrating.

I know :)

If he was near death though, he wouldn't have gone for the gun cupboard either.

She wasn't shot in the kitchen anyway.
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline lookout

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If she was incapacitated why wouldn't he just take the gun off her? I have a hard time picturing a father arming himself against his daughter in any case.


I'm afraid that she was no ordinary daughter,Bridget. Instead,a girl who missed/forgot vital medication for her volatile state of mind. Nevill wouldn't have been in any fit state himself to  disarm Sheila,,,because she'd have made sure that he was bashed and shot enough so as not to give him the chance.
Psychotic outbursts are frightening to see let alone getting involved in one,,and nobody knows when these people will turn.
My daughter and two work colleagues had to shut themselves in a cupboard while on night duty when a patient who'd been talking quite normally with them,,,suddenly turned violent and had got a knife from the kitchen. They had to get the police,,and even then,,for a scrawny man,it took 4 officers to calm him down.

Offline Bridget

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I'm afraid that she was no ordinary daughter,Bridget. Instead,a girl who missed/forgot vital medication for her volatile state of mind. Nevill wouldn't have been in any fit state himself to  disarm Sheila,,,because she'd have made sure that he was bashed and shot enough so as not to give him the chance.
Psychotic outbursts are frightening to see let alone getting involved in one,,and nobody knows when these people will turn.
My daughter and two work colleagues had to shut themselves in a cupboard while on night duty when a patient who'd been talking quite normally with them,,,suddenly turned violent and had got a knife from the kitchen. They had to get the police,,and even then,,for a scrawny man,it took 4 officers to calm him down.

Hi Lookout, I have seen a psychotic outburst up close and personal - and I agree, they are fookin' terrifying. But really I was talking about what Neville might do once she was incapacitated.
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Offline Steve_uk

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Sheila looks serene in the photographs,there are no grimaces or signs that she had been in any struggle. True to most schizophrenics she had never harmed anyone else before apart from throwing a few pots and pans around;she was more of a danger to herself if anything when she had put her hand through a window pane. The only known time she had handled a gun was six years earlier and even then witnesses couldn't remember whether she had actually fired or was a mere grouse beater. It also seems strange that she should wash her hands and feet as the Defence maintain yet not put on any clean underwear.

Offline lookout

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Hi Lookout, I have seen a psychotic outburst up close and personal - and I agree, they are fookin' terrifying. But really I was talking about what Neville might do once she was incapacitated.


It would have appeared that Nevill was already " fit for nothing ",Bridget,,,but what he may have done if Sheila had been incapacitated,I wouldn't know really. I do think he'd have made some attempt to have grabbed the rifle from her though and I'm surprised that he may not have attempted to,except that Sheila had the upper hand anyway,,and would have backed away from any attempt he may have made.

Offline mike tesko

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I know :)

If he was near death though, he wouldn't have gone for the gun cupboard either.

She wasn't shot in the kitchen anyway.

She was, and the contents of the police radio logs confirm this to be true - you do not report finding the body of a dead male "AND" the body of a dead female in the kitchen upon entry (7:37am), if there was no female body which had been shot there. The excuse about PC Collins mistakenly identifying Ralphs body for a female one simply does not hold water, because if that was the true explanation, there would only have been reference to the finding of one body, not two different ones. Moreover, the reference to two bodies was not in isolation, since a minute later, there was /is confirmation from the scene that the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female (7:38am) had been found. Again, you do not report the finding of a dead male and a dead female, if as it were there had been or was only one body found in the kitchen, misidentified by a police officer. You might get the sex of the body wrong, but not the number of bodies found. Then of course, there is / was the additional message passed from the scene at 7:42am, where a request is sent for the police surgeon and the coroners officer to be contacted regarding two bodies? Again, if there had only been one body that had been mistakenly identified as a dead female when all along it was the body of Ralph Bamber, you would not be reporting from the scene and making a request for the police surgeon and the coroners officer to be contacted regarding the discovery of two bodies, the reference would be to the find of one body, which could possibly have been mistakenly identified as a dead female, when all along it had been a dead male. Moreover, by 7:45am, the control room was contacting scenes of crime officers at home asking them to come on duty because police were dealing with an incident at whf involving a murder and a suicide, now where did the control room get that information from? How could anyone describe Ralph Bambers death, by and from before 7:45am as a suicide? I do not buy any nonsense about the police recording the facts wrongly, it's just too fantastic to expect anyone with a brain to contemplate on the scale it would have had to happen. They didn 't make mistakes on the scale suggested, they lied and covered up the truth, about where the body of Sheila was originally found upon entry to the kitchen. How come the raid team only reported finding three more bodies upstairs (8:10am), if only one body had been found downstairs? Whichever way you want to look at it, the explanation about PC Collins mistakenly misidentifying Ralphs body for that of a dead female, simply does not hold water, or add up, or equate to the known, and reported facts. If the explanation offered by PC Collins had any truth in it, the reference to the body of a dead female would have appeared in the radio logs before any mention of a dead male body having been found upon entry into the kitchen - police can't even get basic things like this right which indicates that they have made a story up, and they did so because later on upstairs in the bedroom, a police officer shot and killed Sheila, after she had already been declared dead by the police surgeon (8:44am) at a time when she only had one wound to her throat...
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 08:07:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Steve_uk

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But why would the Police kill Sheila upstairs? They would have to deliberately approach her and shoot her in the neck to make it look like a suicide.They could cover themselves by saying Sheila was armed and they had to shoot her from a distance in order to preserve their own lives.

Offline mike tesko

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Sheila looks serene in the photographs,there are no grimaces or signs that she had been in any struggle. True to most schizophrenics she had never harmed anyone else before apart from throwing a few pots and pans around;she was more of a danger to herself if anything when she had put her hand through a window pane. The only known time she had handled a gun was six years earlier and even then witnesses couldn't remember whether she had actually fired or was a mere grouse beater. It also seems strange that she should wash her hands and feet as the Defence maintain yet not put on any clean underwear.

You have hit the nail on the head - How could Sheila look so peaceful and serene if she was shot under the chin and killed by Jeremy, or anybody else? She was on the bed, unconscious and whilst police were shifting a loaded rifle about onto and off her body, and whilst adjusting her fingers around the trigger mechanism the weapon fired the second bullet (PV/19) that penetrated beneath her chin and sent a bullet thundering into her brain - I do not believe that she fired the shot herself under her chin, and I do not believe that Jeremy or any would be as yet unidentified killer was responsible for firing a second shot under her chin, but I do know that the police did so, or at least she was shot under the chin by a bullet which killed her, after she had already been pronounced as being dead (8:44am) by the police surgeon at a time when she only had one wound to her neck / throat...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Steve_uk

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If Sheila shoots herself or is accidentally shot in the kitchen during the struggle with Nevill then lies there either incapacitated or pretending to be dead,which would explain the Police report of one male body and one female body in the kitchen,what is the time frame for the first set of photographs taken of Sheila which show a free flow of blood on her face and neck? Are you saying that in the first set of photographs taken the Police were photographing a person who was still alive? How does Sheila get from the kitchen where she is shot with a gun with the silencer fitted,move upstairs then scatter her religious messages with the bible,not to mention the other suicide note in capital letters,then wait until the Police enter the bedroom? If she resists arrest and the Police feel they were in danger they can justify shooting her without a cover-up. Why do the Police have to stage-manage a death,and how does the rifle manage to discharge in the bedroom? What happened to the silencer which according to the Andrew Hunter book draft was definitely on the gun whilst Sheila received her first non fatal injury but was absent on the second fatal shot,and why if the Police had shot Sheila in the bedroom which time-wise would have been late in the investigation does the second set of photos used in evidence at the trial show that blood had congealed in these photos when with the Police having shot her upstairs there should have been fresh blood as a result.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 02:17:PM by Steve_uk »