Author Topic: Sheila attempted to commit suicide (but failed), and was shot by the police...  (Read 52896 times)

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Offline Roch

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I'm sorry, you've lost me. I have no idea what you mean by verbal investigatory evidence - sounds like gossip!

By the way, in whose statement is the bit about JB blaming the raid team - I know I've read it but can't remember where.

Bridget, please don't be flippant and dismissive with me.  Cheers.

Offline Bridget

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JB's defence team have for 27 years, tried to uncover / piece together what took place.  Repeated requests for the release of relevant documentation have been denied, ignored, sidestepped.  Go and read the adjournment debate from Andrew Hunter and the reply given by Fiona McTaggart.  That was 7 years ago and 3 years after his last failed appeal, to put things in perspective. 

And Bridget, two Italian medical professors gave an estimated time of death as not superior to two hours of being discovered (official time of discover).  That places the death within the time frame of the raid. The CCRC rejected their report because they were working from photographs.  You your self have stated that there is no wet blood, which is astounding as there are plain as day small pools of wet blood upon her throat.

No, I've stated that to me (a non expert) the photos do not show conclusively that the blood is wet. I've also said that if it is wet it could be blood trapped in her throat seeping from the wounds.

Bridget, please don't be flippant and dismissive with me.  Cheers.

What?? You sound like my old school teacher - get some coffee. I don't know what you mean by "verbal investigatory evidence" and the way you have used the phrase makes it sound like what I would call gossip. Is that better?
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Offline Roch

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No, I've stated that to me (a non expert) the photos do not show conclusively that the blood is wet. I've also said that if it is wet it could be blood trapped in her throat seeping from the wounds.

What?? You sound like my old school teacher - get some coffee. I don't know what you mean by "verbal investigatory evidence" and the way you have used the phrase makes it sound like what I would call gossip. Is that better?

It's quite clear the that the small pools of blood on her throat are wet.  Crystal clear.  They are not in the line of any flash. 

Change 'evidence' for 'information'.

Investigatory in this case = explorative interviewing around specific issues.

Verbal information in this case = information give via the mode of human speech, from relevant people to the investigator.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 10:25:AM by Roch »

Offline mike tesko

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Neither in the original Trial nor at any subsequent stage has JB's defence team asserted that a policeman shot Sheila !!!!

It is now my turn to put things into perspective and as simply as I can - If the police stage managed the body of Sheila on the bedroom floor, and they tampered with the crime scene photographic evidence, and instigated a cover up, they must have done so with self - preservation in mind, do you not agree? Let me try to put it another way, if the police actually stage managed Sheila's body on the bedroom floor and allowed Jeremy to be blamed for doing what they themselves did, why would they allow that to happen, if the police had done nothing wrong at the scene? Anyone who has seen the crime scene photographs of Sheila's body on the bedroom floor will almost certainly come to the conclusion that her body has been stage managed by someone. I for one do not believe or accept that Jeremy stage managed Sheila's body on the bedroom floor as shown in the disclosed photographs taken by police - everything points to the police being responsible for doing that and this is backed up by reference to the photographs which have recently come into the public domain (on this forum and elsewhere). Jeremy wasn't at the scene when this set or sequence of photographs were being taken, and clearly there is evidence that police moved not only Sheila's right hand so that PC Bird could take pictures of the bloodied hand mark on the front lower part of her nightdress, but they also moved the guns barrel from a position beneath the chin, to one of it resting against the left hand side of her throat. They also adjusted the hem of her nightdress, and moved a bible against her upper right arm, actions which the police strenuously deny having done, even though it is clearly shown in the photographs they took at a time when Bamber could not possibly have had any involvement because he was not there at the material time or moment when such stage managing of the scene took place, and photographs were then taken?

So...

Jeremy did not stage manage his sisters body on the bedroom floor to try and fool the police into thinking that she had killed the others and then taken her own life - the police did the stage managing, and they allowed Jeremy to be blamed for doing that which they themselves are responsible for doing. You would not do that unless you have got something to hide, in my view. For some reason the police at the scene do not want to have to admit that it was them / they who stage managed Sheila's body on the bedroom floor? If they did, Jeremy's convictions would become quashed at the stroke of a pen, because the jury at his trial were shown photographs on the understanding that this was exactly how Sheila;'s body had been found upon entry by the police, when all along the jury had been shown stage managed pictures, and fooled by the prosecutions arguments that Jeremy had been responsible for doing that, and that he had killed Sheila on the bedroom floor and stage managed the body by planting the rifle atop it, and re-arranging her hands to make it appear that she had taken her own life?

The person or persons who did stage manage Sheila's body on the bedroom floor, have got something to hide that is linked to how she actually died in the bedroom after being shot under the chin - this was why the jury relied and acted upon the images they were shown of Sheila's body on the bedroom floor, stage managed as it were according to the prosecutions case, by Jeremy Bamber, and no-one else? The jury were persuaded that Bamber had done the stage managing, but they based this on being shown and given access to only a small number of crime scene photographs (50 out of 581). Imagine for one moment the impact it would have had, if all 581 photographs had been made available to the jury? Imagine if the jury had seen the photographs of the displaced and repositioned guns barrel from a position under the chin to one of resting against the left side of her neck? Imagine what they would have made of the police assertion that no-one moved or touched anything other than DI "Ron" Cook, who shifted Sheila's right hand so that PC Bird could photograph bloodied marks on her nightdress? If the jury had known about the existence of such crucial photographs taken by the police at a time when Jeremy was not even at the scene, they would have rejected the photographic evidence on the basis that they did not show how Sheila's body had been or was found. I think the jury would have been able to work out who had been guilty of the stage managing, and they would almost certainly have concluded that it could not have been and was not Jeremy. With this in mind, the effect of introducing the photographs to support the prosecutions contention that Bamber had stage managed his sisters body so as to fool the police into thinking she had taken her own life, the jury would have been able to reject that consideration and the fact that police did stage manage the scene in the bedroom would have alerted the jury to the possibility that something untoward had taken place surrounding the circumstances of her alleged death by suicide in the bedroom...

Police did not stage manage Sheila's body on the bedroom floor for nothing. They had something to hide which related to how she came to die there. Police went out of their way to promote the idea that Sheila had only been shot once, and that relatives had found the crucial silencer that was used on the gun at the time she was shot under the chin and died? Yet, one of their own had taken possession of a silencer (SBJ/1) at the scene on 7th August 1985. Fact of the matter is, that no silencer was fitted to the guns barrel which  fired the fatal shot under the chin  that killed Sheila, but police were happy to let such dodgy evidence be used to try (and succeed) to convict Jeremy for killing his sister, and everyone else...

« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 10:32:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline lookout

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Mike,,,the police had already come under fire over the Diane Jones murder,,so it's obvious that they were trying to justify their past mistakes by ( adding yet more ) in getting their man this time round.
They had to shrug off their " Clouseau " type investigations,,so made sure that they all still held their jobs.

Offline Roch

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Bridget, I have had my coffee now.  This is the document.  I have tried to post it up it by using the mona lisa button

Offline Bridget

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Bridget, I have had my coffee now.  This is the document.  I have tried to post it up it by using the mona lisa button

That's better :)

I take it that's Saxby? Is the rest of it available?
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline Roch

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That's better :)

I take it that's Saxby? Is the rest of it available?

I was wondering if there was any more available.  They look like COLP notes?

Offline Bridget

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I was wondering if there was any more available.  They look like COLP notes?

Could be.. what thread was it on?
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline mike tesko

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Mike,,,the police had already come under fire over the Diane Jones murder,,so it's obvious that they were trying to justify their past mistakes by ( adding yet more ) in getting their man this time round.
They had to shrug off their " Clouseau " type investigations,,so made sure that they all still held their jobs.

According to the evidence of PS Woodcock, he did not seize the rifle and check to see if it was loaded with bullets until 11:10am, yet if this was the case, it becomes obvious by reference to the available crime scene photographs that police were potentially moving a loaded rifle around and about in the region of Sheila's neck, before then...

(1) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18724;image
(2) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4318;image
(3) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4308;image
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 11:25:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...


Offline Roch

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According to the evidence of PS Woodcock, he did not seize the rifle and check to see if it was loaded with bullets until 11:10am, yet if this was the case, it becomes obvious by reference to the available crime scene photographs that police were potentially moving a loaded rifle around and about in the region of Sheila's neck, before then...

(1) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18724;image
(2) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4318;image


That completely trashes John Lamberton's assertion.  He used to argue the the police first removed the rifle to make it safe, then replaced it were it had been, in order to take crime scene photos.  His argument was that this initial displacement of the rifle caused Sheila's head to move and expunged blood from her (that had welled up).    I always thought this was a load of tosh btw.

Offline mike tesko

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That completely trashes John Lamberton's assertion.  He used to argue the the police first removed the rifle to make it safe, then replaced it were it had been, in order to take crime scene photos.  His argument was that this initial displacement of the rifle caused Sheila's head to move and expunged blood from her (that had welled up).    I always thought this was a load of tosh btw.

It is the movement of a potentially loaded rifle (before 11:10am) upon and around Sheila's neck and the repositioning of her hand upon in and around the trigger that ultimately led to Sheila being killed by the discharge of the gun beneath her chin which sent bullet PV/20 up through the base and roof of her mouth and  into her brain...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Roch

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It is the movement of a potentially loaded rifle (before 11:10am) upon and around Sheila's neck and the repositioning of her hand upon in and around the trigger that ultimately led to Sheila being killed by the discharge of the gun beneath her chin which sent bullet PV/20 up through the base and roof of her mouth and  into her brain...

What about the circular blood pattern on the carpet?

Offline Bridget

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That completely trashes John Lamberton's assertion.  He used to argue the the police first removed the rifle to make it safe, then replaced it were it had been, in order to take crime scene photos.  His argument was that this initial displacement of the rifle caused Sheila's head to move and expunged blood from her (that had welled up).    I always thought this was a load of tosh btw.

Personally I find it very hard to believe that none of the raid team would have touched her, either to check the rifle was safe or to check whether she was alive - and yet none of them mention it. Doesn't that seem odd? They've gone in there armed to the teeth expecting to be confronted by a 'nutter with a gun', and when they see her lying there they just assume that she's dead and the gun is safe.
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