Author Topic: If recent Arizona tests true, Silencer evidence manufactured...  (Read 29463 times)

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Offline lookout

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Re: If recent Arizona tests true, Silencer evidence manufactured...
« Reply #195 on: August 14, 2012, 03:37:PM »
Lookout - correct me if I am wrong. But didn't I see you write that Sheila had a shower AFTER the first shot?


Erm,no Mat.

guest154

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Re: If recent Arizona tests true, Silencer evidence manufactured...
« Reply #196 on: August 14, 2012, 03:38:PM »

Erm,no Mat.

Okay, must have been someone else. I'm trying to reply to the post but I can't find it.

Offline grahameb

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Re: If recent Arizona tests true, Silencer evidence manufactured...
« Reply #197 on: August 14, 2012, 03:53:PM »
Grahame  you are right marigold gloves are mostly yellow or orange unless Jeremy had rather small hands they would have been tight on him.  You can buy black ones for males but they are rather thick and would not have been much good for the activities he is being accused of. :)
They would have matched his top as well. ;)

Offline susan

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Re: If recent Arizona tests true, Silencer evidence manufactured...
« Reply #198 on: August 14, 2012, 03:57:PM »
Grahame  that is very important according to Margot if you can't get a good contrast always go for black.  They would be less noticeable as well on the bike yellow would have really stood out. :)

Neil

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Re: If recent Arizona tests true, Silencer evidence manufactured...
« Reply #199 on: August 14, 2012, 03:58:PM »
Hi Neil I think it's become complicated with Jeremy Bamber's team sowing the seeds of doubt in everybody's mind over the years which they have every right to do,but notwithstanding I think it's a tactic they're employing at every opportunity with every piece of evidence in the hope that the authorities will just want to rid themselves of this troublesome case and let him go,which they won't.

In my opinion the defence since the trial hasn't done a bad job,and I recall that at the original trial this was the only question which the jurors asked about the blood in the silencer,about whether it could only have been Sheila's or a mixture of the parents' blood. The jurors were told at the time if I remember rightly that the blood on the silencer was Sheila's. Since the 1986 trial forensic evidence has emerged that the blood could have been a mixture of June's and Ralph's(Nevill's) and that June's DNA was on the silencer,but they couldn't be sure whether Sheila's was.

We just don't know whether Jeremy did use a silencer that morning,though it would have made sense had he killed the twins first and didn't want to rouse the suspicion of other occupants of the house. Jeremy knew he couldn't kill so many people outright with the first round of ammunition so after he killed the twins he shot June in bed and possibly Nevill in the bedroom or on the landing. This would account for the ten shots of the first load of ammunition after which Jeremy would have to reload,whereupon Nevill seized his chance and fled downstairs to try and reach the telephone in the kitchen.

I'm going off the point slightly but I do believe a silencer was fitted to the rifle,and Andrew Hunter MP came to the same conclusion in his book draft. The point about the silencer evidence in court was that as Jeremy was by necessity in such close proximity to Sheila when he shot her with the silencer that backspatter lodged in the silencer,which Jeremy then cleaned and replaced in the gun cupboard. It was less dangerous in his mind to put the silencer back there than to remove it from the farm altogether as he had nowhere to hide it and I believe the drains were also searched by Police.

Of course the Jeremy supporters claim multifarious things;either there was no silencer used in the crimes in the first place so the silencer was irrelevant,or there was a silencer but there was contamination,or a flake of Sheila's blood was deliberately placed in the silencer by the relatives to incriminate Jeremy.

As I'm of the belief that the Julie Mugford testimony is true and that Jeremy's statement to the Police was a pack of lies from start to finish the silencer evidence to my mind is not a crucial part of this case,it just tends to confirm my belief that this case has been proved beyond reasonable doubt.

Thanks Steve, great post, not that I agree with much of it though.  My own belief is that the silencer evidence has now been totally discredited.  From the moment it was handled by all and sundry, left to sit on a desk in someone's office and generally left wide open to cross contamination, the prosecution should never have been allowed to produce it.

I think it's very difficult to assess Julies evidence without hearing it straight from the horses mouth, so to speak.  That is why so much importance is placed on a witness appearing, in person, at court.  Rather than just hearing the words, you can judge their demeanor etc.  I haven't even been able to read the transcript of Julie being cross examined, have you?  Therefor I find it difficult to decide whether I believe her or not. 

I think that if I had been on that jury and knew about Julies newspaper deal and her criminal activities, I would have been inclined to rely more heavily on other evidence, such as the silencer when reaching my decision, rather than her testimony.
To be honest, I don't know how vigorously the defence challenged the silencer evidence at trial and how much was made of the cross contamination issues.  Remember, the silencer evidence, if believed, would be enough to convict, said Judge Drake.

Offline grahameb

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Re: If recent Arizona tests true, Silencer evidence manufactured...
« Reply #200 on: August 14, 2012, 05:31:PM »
Grahame  that is very important according to Margot if you can't get a good contrast always go for black.  They would be less noticeable as well on the bike yellow would have really stood out. :)
I always go for black. It makes me look slimmer. ;)

mertol22

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Re: If recent Arizona tests true, Silencer evidence manufactured...
« Reply #201 on: August 14, 2012, 05:38:PM »
Thanks Steve, great post, not that I agree with much of it though.  My own belief is that the silencer evidence has now been totally discredited.  From the moment it was handled by all and sundry, left to sit on a desk in someone's office and generally left wide open to cross contamination, the prosecution should never have been allowed to produce it.

I think it's very difficult to assess Julies evidence without hearing it straight from the horses mouth, so to speak.  That is why so much importance is placed on a witness appearing, in person, at court.  Rather than just hearing the words, you can judge their demeanor etc.  I haven't even been able to read the transcript of Julie being cross examined, have you?  Therefor I find it difficult to decide whether I believe her or not. 

I think that if I had been on that jury and knew about Julies newspaper deal and her criminal activities, I would have been inclined to rely more heavily on other evidence, such as the silencer when reaching my decision, rather than her testimony.
To be honest, I don't know how vigorously the defence challenged the silencer evidence at trial and how much was made of the cross contamination issues.  Remember, the silencer evidence, if believed, would be enough to convict, said Judge Drake.
The silencer was a back door submission and they jury bought it, contaminated did not seem to matter, good judges would have dismissed it as evidence, great judges would have thrown the case out and told the inept prosecution lawyer to get the hell out of my court.

Offline susan

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Re: If recent Arizona tests true, Silencer evidence manufactured...
« Reply #202 on: August 14, 2012, 05:39:PM »
Grahame all black is always best for wearing in the dark especially riding a bike through the countryside :)

Offline susan

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Re: If recent Arizona tests true, Silencer evidence manufactured...
« Reply #203 on: August 14, 2012, 05:47:PM »
Wow Mertol  I would not want to run into you with my trolley when I'm in the supermarket especially if I am leaning across the thing in my baggy shorts and sandels and tartan socks. I would be in fear of being frogged marched outside :)

mertol22

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Re: If recent Arizona tests true, Silencer evidence manufactured...
« Reply #204 on: August 14, 2012, 05:56:PM »
Wow Mertol  I would not want to run into you with my trolley when I'm in the supermarket especially if I am leaning across the thing in my baggy shorts and sandels and tartan socks. I would be in fear of being frogged marched outside :)
Lucky for you Susan acting the moron in these Supermarkets is a male  occurance so consider yourself fortunate.

Offline grahameb

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Re: If recent Arizona tests true, Silencer evidence manufactured...
« Reply #205 on: August 14, 2012, 05:58:PM »
The silencer was a back door submission and they jury bought it, contaminated did not seem to matter, good judges would have dismissed it as evidence, great judges would have thrown the case out and told the inept prosecution lawyer to get the hell out of my court.
I think that the prosecution did not have a case without the silencer evidence. JM's testimony was not enough and the prosecution knew it. So by building up the silencer evidence so as to make it look convincing they actually managed to not only convince the jury, but also the judge. He was completely taken in by it.

Unless of course, dare I say it? He was in on it? But of course we must refrain from saying such things. Because he was a Freemason just like RWB and they are honourable men sworn to uphold the law of the land and also to abide by the Freemason rules that they are to support a fellow Mason even if the fellow Mason was doing something unlawful.
Quote
You must conceal all crimes of your brother Masons...and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him...It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations.
But of course all this is rediculous and fantasy isn't it? ::)

Likewise the silencer evidence counted absolutely nothing on its own either. I honestly think that if Judge (ducky) Drake had not lead the jury on by suggesting that if the blood in the silencer was that of Sheila's then they must judge Bamber guilty then I strongly believe that they would never had considered the silencer evidence as authentic?

In fact he should have seen the potential contamination of the silencer and that there were no independent witnesses at its discovery and should have directed the jury accordingly. Instead he "endorced" the silencer evidence as legitimate and genuine. Which of course we can clearly see that the circumstances of its discovery and its recovery by the police as well as its subsequent testing, that this silencer was a complete red herring.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 06:01:PM by grahame »

mertol22

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Re: If recent Arizona tests true, Silencer evidence manufactured...
« Reply #206 on: August 14, 2012, 06:02:PM »
I think that the prosecution did not have a case without the silencer evidence. JM's testimony was not enough and the prosecution knew it. So by building up the silencer evidence so as to make it look convincing they actually managed to not only convince the jury, but also the judge. He was completely taken in by it.

Unless of course, dare I say it? He was in on it? But of course we must refrain from saying such things. Because he was a Freemason just like RWB and they are honourable men sworn to uphold the law of the land and also to abide by the Freemason rules that they are to support a fellow Mason even if the fellow Mason was doing something unlawful. But of course all this is rediculous and fantasy isn't it? ::)

Likewise the silencer evidence counted absolutely nothing on its own either. I honestly think that if Judge (ducky) Drake had not lead the jury on by suggesting that if the blood in the silencer was that of Sheila's then they must judge Bamber guilty then I strongly believe that they would never had considered the silencer evidence as authentic?

In fact he should have seen the potential contamination of the silencer and that there were no independent witnesses at its discovery and should have directed the jury accordingly. Instead he "endorced" the silencer evidence as legitimate and genuine. Which of course we can clearly see that the circumstances of its discovery and its recovery by the police as well as its subsequent testing, that this silencer was a complete red herring.
JM/ Silencer on their own a little weak, JM no physical back up, Silencer physical back up they wanted physical evidence without it no case. One needed the other .
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 06:04:PM by mertol22 »

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: If recent Arizona tests true, Silencer evidence manufactured...
« Reply #207 on: August 15, 2012, 08:44:PM »
Thanks Steve, great post, not that I agree with much of it though.  My own belief is that the silencer evidence has now been totally discredited.  From the moment it was handled by all and sundry, left to sit on a desk in someone's office and generally left wide open to cross contamination, the prosecution should never have been allowed to produce it.

I think it's very difficult to assess Julies evidence without hearing it straight from the horses mouth, so to speak.  That is why so much importance is placed on a witness appearing, in person, at court.  Rather than just hearing the words, you can judge their demeanor etc.  I haven't even been able to read the transcript of Julie being cross examined, have you?  Therefor I find it difficult to decide whether I believe her or not. 

I think that if I had been on that jury and knew about Julies newspaper deal and her criminal activities, I would have been inclined to rely more heavily on other evidence, such as the silencer when reaching my decision, rather than her testimony.
To be honest, I don't know how vigorously the defence challenged the silencer evidence at trial and how much was made of the cross contamination issues.  Remember, the silencer evidence, if believed, would be enough to convict, said Judge Drake.

Hi Neil if you scroll down on this link to The Trial you'll find the account of Julie Mugford in court. I'm sure I'll be blamed somehow for posting it but here goes:http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jP4ZtW5Off0J:www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D74%26t%3D2445&hl=en&gl=uk&strip=1

It's not working so type Sleuthing for Justice David Shaw into your browser.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 08:45:PM by Steve_uk »

Online Roch

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Re: If recent Arizona tests true, Silencer evidence manufactured...
« Reply #208 on: August 15, 2012, 09:03:PM »
JM/ Silencer on their own a little weak, JM no physical back up, Silencer physical back up they wanted physical evidence without it no case. One needed the other .

Top post.  And by the way, I didn't agree with whichever member who posted that the recent panorama documentary about the Cardiff three / South Wales Police was not relevant to this case.  Look at the tactics used by the police in that case / documentary.

Neil

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Re: If recent Arizona tests true, Silencer evidence manufactured...
« Reply #209 on: August 15, 2012, 10:05:PM »
Hi Neil if you scroll down on this link to The Trial you'll find the account of Julie Mugford in court. I'm sure I'll be blamed somehow for posting it but here goes:http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jP4ZtW5Off0J:www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D74%26t%3D2445&hl=en&gl=uk&strip=1

It's not working so type Sleuthing for Justice David Shaw into your browser.
Thanks Steve