If recent Arizona tests true, Silencer evidence manufactured...

[Jane]

Hi egap1  I think in some cases couples like the Bambers like to fit the typical middle class couple i.e. a boy and a girl both away at school a volvo car and a dog   I am not sure June wanted the children for the good of the children or for herself sometimes women like June have difficulty showing affection and love as they never received it themselves.It is difficult to speculate but just because you don,t show love does not mean you do not  feel it.  Maybe June was cold it really is unfair of me to speculate as I never knew her people who did may speak so differently.

Susan, what you say rings bells. My mother had been married nearly 20 years, and suddenly everyone around her had children so she decided she could "put up with the mess and inconvenience" a child would create because it would look after her in her old age. It was indeed, all about what a child could give her, rather than, in terms of affection, what she could do for a child.

June is described as being modest, quiet, kind, prudish, shy, gentle and sometimes a bit strange. It sounds as if Neville was the driving force and she was content to stay in the background. Maybe she was able to use the children as a reason not to join him at social gatherings she had no liking for.

[Roch]

I didn't say no one questioned 'things', I said that no one questioned the fact that a mother with mental illness might have killed her own children. Are you honestly suggesting that because there weren't stories of mothers with mental illness killing their children all over the papers the idea could not have occurred to him?

What leap? It may be an abridged version, but that is exactly what he was convicted of doing.

Don't try to deflect the argument with trajectory theories, I'm still waiting for you to tell me why the trajectories preclude Sheila having been murdered

I haven't deflected anything, it was you who mentioned the second shot 

How do you know that nobody questioned how or why a mother killed her own children?  You cannot possibly know that.  I'm certain that up to 1985, this would have been a massively rare occurrence in comparison to modern Britain.  This rarity could have influenced anything, from press speculation to relatives' suspicion. 

I simply do not believe that Jeremy Bamber thought 'yes, I can kill my nephews and blame it on Sheila... that will work and everyone will believe it because she is a nutter'.  Erm... Bullshit. 

What do you make of the other plan he came up with? I'll kill everyone but tip my girlfriend off beforehand.  That will be fine, she won't say anything.

Not only does he predict years in to the future that mentally unstable mothers have the propensity to kill their children, he is at the same time so mind numbingly stupid as to almost guarantee a prison sentence, by telling his trainee primary school teacher girlfriend that the twins will be killed.

[susan]

Hi april1  I am sure June was a good person maybe the religion got in the way of her being a loving Mum I wonder if she was brought up in a religious household herself in her own mind she thought she was doing the best for the children but maybe too controlling then children tend to rebel when they are older and go against everything they were taught.  It is so strange life as if Jeremy,s Mother had kept him and Sheila,s kept her  everything would have been so different. 

[Bridget]

I haven't deflected anything, it was you who mentioned the second shot 

How do you know that nobody questioned how or why a mother killed her own children?  You cannot possibly know that.  I'm certain that up to 1985, this would have been a massively rare occurrence in comparison to modern Britain.  This rarity could have influenced anything, from press speculation to relatives' suspicion. 

I simply do not believe that Jeremy Bamber thought 'yes, I can kill my nephews and blame it on Sheila... that will work and everyone will believe it because she is a nutter'.  Erm... Bullshit. 

What do you make of the other plan he came up with? I'll kill everyone but tip my girlfriend off beforehand.  That will be fine, she won't say anything.

Not only does he predict years in to the future that mentally unstable mothers have the propensity to kill their children, he is at the same time so mind numbingly stupid as to almost guarantee a prison sentence, by telling his trainee primary school teacher girlfriend that the twins will be killed.

Apart from the fact that it was Neville, June Sheila and his nephews, I'd say that is exactly what he thought.

He didn't need to predict anything, he was relying solely on Sheila being seen as the nutter with a gun.

Regarding the telling of Julie -speculation warning but since you asked - I think he saw their partnership as a sort of Bonnie & Clyde relationship. I think he loved her but not nearly as much as he believed she did him. He believed she was supportive of his plan, and in any case so besotted that she would never betray him. I think he underestimated the detrimental effect that the killings would have on Julie, and their relationship. After a while she was difficult to be around and he went sniffing elsewhere, which triggered the end. He never foresaw that happening.

[Roch]

Apart from the fact that it was Neville, June Sheila and his nephews, I'd say that is exactly what he thought.

He didn't need to predict anything, he was relying solely on Sheila being seen as the nutter with a gun.

Regarding the telling of Julie -speculation warning but since you asked - I think he saw their partnership as a sort of Bonnie & Clyde relationship. I think he loved her but not nearly as much as he believed she did him. He believed she was supportive of his plan, and in any case so besotted that she would never betray him. I think he underestimated the detrimental effect that the killings would have on Julie, and their relationship. After a while she was difficult to be around and he went sniffing elsewhere, which triggered the end. He never foresaw that happening.

He believed she was supportive of his plan? How could he believe that unless she actually was supportive of his plan?  He underestimated the detrimental effect that killing two six year olds would have upon his trainee primary school teacher girlfriend?  He went sniffing elsewhere, as response to Julie being difficult with him because she was carrying the burden of him wiping his entire family out, yet despite this, he didn't see the end coming???   :D

With respect... I cannot buy any of this.

[Bridget]

He believed she was supportive of his plan? How could he believe that unless she actually was supportive of his plan?  He underestimated the detrimental effect that killing two six year olds would have upon his trainee primary school teacher girlfriend?  He went sniffing elsewhere, as response to Julie being difficult with him because she was carrying the burden of him wiping his entire family out, yet despite this, he didn't see the end coming???   :D

With respect... I cannot buy any of this.

That's because you can't put yourself in the head of a guilty Bamber - try harder!

I'm sure when he thought of Julie he didn't base his judgment on the fact that she was a trainee teacher. He knew her, or thought he did intimately. She was unwillinging to believe that he was serious, and so did not seem particularly outraged when he spoke of killing his family - she simply brushed it off. He took that as acceptance.

[Patti]

OK so he shot Sheila twice.

Would you think he would have still gone along with idea to blame her?  Surely panic would have set in, he would have realised he had blown it...I doubt he would have been that stupid to shoot someone twice then still pin the blame on her. 

If it was me, I would have made it look like a break in.....Job done!

But, no....this case is far more complex. 

[lookout]

OK so he shot Sheila twice.

Would you think he would have still gone along with idea to blame her?  Surely panic would have set in, he would have realised he had blown it...I doubt he would have been that stupid to shoot someone twice then still pin the blame on her. 

If it was me, I would have made it look like a break in.....Job done!

But, no....this case is far more complex. 

Patti,,,I wouldn't have even answered the phone. In fact,,he may have been better off not bothering altogether,,then who would have got the blame.? Being as there's no evidence that he even committed the murders. 

[Bridget]

OK so he shot Sheila twice.

Would you think he would have still gone along with idea to blame her?  Surely panic would have set in, he would have realised he had blown it...I doubt he would have been that stupid to shoot someone twice then still pin the blame on her. 

If it was me, I would have made it look like a break in.....Job done!

But, no....this case is far more complex. 

That's one of those weak points I was talking about earlier..

[Roch]

That's because you can't put yourself in the head of a guilty Bamber - try harder!

I'm sure when he thought of Julie he didn't base his judgment on the fact that she was a trainee teacher. He knew her, or thought he did intimately. She was unwillinging to believe that he was serious, and so did not seem particularly outraged when he spoke of killing his family - she simply brushed it off. He took that as acceptance.

Ok, so what you are suggesting here is that Jeremy tested Julie (unbeknown to her) by running past her the idea of killing his family.  When Julie didn't take him seriously (and therefore didn't offer opposition) he took that as tacit approval of the idea and duly carried it out.  This in turn led to a rather delayed realisation from Julie who eventually plucked up the courage to turn him in.  This turning him in and sudden prick of conscience just happened to coincide with him cosying up to another woman.

Have I got this right?

[Patti]

Patti,,,I wouldn't have even answered the phone. In fact,,he may have been better off not bothering altogether,,then who would have got the blame.? Being as there's no evidence that he even committed the murders.

Hi Lookout, I don't answer my phone unless I know who it is calling me. It was about 3am when the police phoned me about my mum. I must admit I did answer it and just caught the word police in the sentence...but, that call lasted much longer than the call JB said he had....I still go back to what he said in his first statement of him saying, I'm not really sure if he said Sheila or She.....but he said it was Sheila to police when he rang them....so he must have been sure....but was he? I have always said June looks the most likely to have walked through a crime scene rather than her daughter....but that is guessing I suppose....

What a day I have had with my car....talk about getting ripped off.....one garge 94 quid and the next one 25 quid....for the same work...how can that be? 

[Bridget]

Ok, so what you are suggesting here is that Jeremy tested Julie (unbeknown to her) by running past her the idea of killing his family.  When Julie didn't take him seriously (and therefore didn't offer opposition) he took that as tacit approval of the idea and duly carried it out.  This in turn led to a rather delayed realisation from Julie who eventually plucked up the courage to turn him in.  This turning him in and sudden prick of conscience just happened to coincide with him cosying up to another woman.

Have I got this right?

Close - it wasn't a test. I doubt he came straight out with the assertion that he would kill them, he probably started with whinging about them, built up to saying he hated them, then to wishing them harm and then wanting them dead. I'm not saying he did it consciously, but as his trust in her grew he felt he could be more and more open about his true feelings.

I don't deny that her 'prick of conscience' was probably triggered by the end of the relationship, but that doesn't make her a liar. Who among us haven't had our eyes opened to someone's real character at some point in time - and very often following a falling out.

[Patti]

That's one of those weak points I was talking about earlier..

Thank you for that Bridget...I shall play on that now..

[Bridget]

Thank you for that Bridget...I shall play on that now..

No doubt.

[Jane]

OK so he shot Sheila twice.

Would you think he would have still gone along with idea to blame her?  Surely panic would have set in, he would have realised he had blown it...I doubt he would have been that stupid to shoot someone twice then still pin the blame on her. 

If it was me, I would have made it look like a break in.....Job done!

But, no....this case is far more complex. 

Patti, hi. I'm trying to get inside JMs head. I can go along with her not believing him capable of such a thing, but might she not have wanted reassurance or did alarm bells not ring, was she really able to pretend those menacing words had never been said. OK!! Job done, supposedly. He rings her with the "good" news. What would be expected of a well bought up young lady who is training to be a teacher when she discovers her boyfriend has slaughtered his family? At the very least I'd expect her to run like Hell to anywhere other than near to her murdering swine of a boyfriend, but no!!!! she stays by his side, presumably still sleeping with him and accepts money from him to go on holiday. Is that collusion or being an accessory after the fact? I think it more likely she negotiated a deal that extricated her from the excrement by dropping him in it.