If recent Arizona tests true, Silencer evidence manufactured...

[Roch]

Hi April1

I wld imagine a lot of not being one of "them" amounted to Jeremy not engaging in sports ie cricket, rugby and football.  It's a Q I keep meaning to ask Mike which I'll do next.  I think Jeremy might have had an artistic bent like his birth sister and for this reason he might have been considered not one of "us".  Plus he might just naturally have felt at ease around females.  Note in The Guardian vid he refers to accompanying Sheila on modelling assignments and mixing with her friends and he was only 15 yoa at the time.  His gawky mates were prob jealous of his 'pulling power' and ease with women.

Sort of cross posted. 

[Jane]

Hi April1

Agree 100%.

Sadly I think Jeremy and Sheila were bad "fits" with the Bambers.  If you look at the background of the birth families they're very different to the Bambers.  Albeit Jeremy's birth father was a major in the army and Nevill a RAF pilot.  Jeremy seems to take after his birth sister who is a prof artist eg he has an interest in sculpture.  Sheila apparently had a talent for writing short stories and her birth uncle read the classics and English at Oxford and wrote poetry and novels.  Nature v nuture did not mesh well in this adoptive family 

Nor did it in another adoptive family, egap, for exactly!!! the same reasons!!! I have more understanding now of how hard it is for those who are all about practicality to find any common ground with those of us who aren't.

[lookout]

Hi April, I'm fine thanks!

I can't disagree with any of that, but it still doesn't make Sheila a killer, IMO

Hi Bridget,,,it was her illness that made her a killer. An illness that Sheila had no control over,,,and neither did anyone else judging by the severity of it,,,including her own doctor and the staff at the clinics where she stayed. It never appeared to stabilise for very long,even after her monthly injections,,which were wrongly reduced in strength. It should have been a gradual process,not something that is suddenly reduced.  It goes for most of medications,,unless of course there are immediate adverse effects.
Sheila wasn't responsible for her actions simply because her illness had taken over.

[guest154]

Hi mat

I don't think you understand where I am coming from. I don't think for one minute Sheila or Jeremy killed before, in no way I am suggesting that.  I am on about the psychological profile of a killer.  For example, had either one of them had any mental disorders? Had either one of them threatened to take their own life? Had either one of them made any suggestions that they wanted to kill? Had either one of them shown any signs of psychopathy? I am on about the patten leading up to the crime.

In all fairness if one was to do a psychological profile Sheila would come out top, she fits the profile.

I know there is a great deal of doubt that Sheila could have killed her family, but look at they way they were killed. One two shots to the body....not a direct kill. Both NB and JB were able to move about when they had been shot....this tells us the killer was in control of the situation and enjoyed what they were doing. The killer wanted them to suffer, taunted them if you like; until the final shots to the head killed them outright. Who ever did this mat was insane and had severe mental health problems.

No someone who kills for money, may not have killed before, but they might have shown some signs of mental illness prior to the killings.

JB was not short of money mat. He had his own place, he owned 42 acres of land, had 8% share of the caravan sight, had all his bills paid for. had 2500 a year bonus, he earned 170 per week, had a new car. He was in a relationship, he had friends, he mixed socially, he was kind hearted, he hated killing animals. The only thing that JB was famous for was his arrogance and his inhability to except what had happened and of course that press photograph with the stare.....Oh and lets not forget the holidays and high life that the press portrayed him as having....Did you know when he went to Amsterdam, they all shared one room and it was not even a 3 star..

The evidence against him is very weak and it has weakened more so over the years...with what has come to light. If he had a retrial, he would be a free man. Unless someone can come up with something that is concrete.

I did not lie to over the windows mat....There is not one scrap of evidence to say he entered those windows or left via any windows at WHF.....They were extensively examined by forensics and they found nothing....

Hey, Patti.
Oh, no Patti I understood what you were getting at. You just can't even begin to compare The yorkshire Ripper and Jeremy Bamber. Completely different MO and profiles. I didn't think it was a fair point.

[Patti]

Hey, Patti.
Oh, no Patti I understood what you were getting at. You just can't even begin to compare The yorkshire Ripper and Jeremy Bamber. Completely different MO and profiles. I didn't think it was a fair point.

Mat babe.

I didn't mean to compare I was talking about psychological profiling and just used his case as an example of what I was trying to get at. Sorry If you think it was not a fair point. I was talking in general about psychology and criminology....

If i was to give you a carpet sample, made with certain fibres that resembled a giraffe, would you buy it, or would you be interested in the carpet....lol
 

[Bridget]

Hi Bridget,,,it was her illness that made her a killer. An illness that Sheila had no control over,,,and neither did anyone else judging by the severity of it,,,including her own doctor and the staff at the clinics where she stayed. It never appeared to stabilise for very long,even after her monthly injections,,which were wrongly reduced in strength. It should have been a gradual process,not something that is suddenly reduced.  It goes for most of medications,,unless of course there are immediate adverse effects.
Sheila wasn't responsible for her actions simply because her illness had taken over.

No, it was her illness that made her a useful scapegoat.

[Roch]

No, it was her illness that made her a useful scapegoat.

You think it's credible that Jeremy Bamber pre-planned using his sister's mental health issues, to (falsely) portray her as having killed her own children?  I find that that notion lacks credibility.  What precedent in 1984/5 did he use, to make such a notion not just credible to him self but also likely to be credible to everyone else?  Had there been a spate or cluster of similar crimes leading up to the mid 80's which would potentially lend credibility to this particular incident also being a mentally unwell mother killing her own children?

Is it purely coincidence (in relation to defence based claims today) that his first reactions noted at the scene were to blame the raid team? 

[Nuala]

You think it's credible that Jeremy Bamber pre-planned using his sister's mental health issues, to (falsely) portray her as having killed her own children?  I find that that notion lacks credibility.  What precedent in 1984/5 did he use, to make such a notion not just credible to him self but also likely to be credible to everyone else?  Had there been a spate or cluster of similar crimes leading up to the mid 80's which would potentially lend credibility to this particular incident also being a mentally unwell mother killing her own children?

Is it purely coincidence (in relation to defence based claims today) that his first reactions noted at the scene were to blame the raid team?

For women to kill their children was apparently an extremely rare occurrence until more recent times. Yet was it really so rare?

I recall as a child reading about a woman who had half a dozen babies on her own, in her bedroom, all of whom died. I believe she admitted in her interview that she killed some of these babies. Yet I don't recall her being arrested.

Perhaps more children were murdered by their mothers at the time of the WHF murders and prior to that time yet the police found this so abhorrent and imcomprensible that did not prosecute the women concerned?

[Nuala]

For women to kill their children was apparently an extremely rare occurrence until more recent times. Yet was it really so rare?

I recall as a child reading about a woman who had half a dozen babies on her own, in her bedroom, all of whom died. I believe she admitted in her interview that she killed some of these babies. Yet I don't recall her being arrested.

Perhaps more children were murdered by their mothers at the time of the WHF murders and prior to that time yet the police found this so abhorrent and imcomprensible that did not prosecute the women concerned?

There is a sort of precedent for such conduct by the police. When I studied 'o' Level Sociology, a very long time ago, we were told by our tutor that there had been an apparent zero suicide rate in certain parts of Catholic Ireland. Then the police changed their reporting procedures and these areas began to report suicides. researchers found that the police in the areas concerned had been reluctant to describe self inflicted deaths there as suicide and had been describing these deaths as accidental deaths.

[lookout]

No, it was her illness that made her a useful scapegoat.

It was Jeremys' lack of gumption for not having seen through the police and the relatives who were looking for someone to blame for something he clearly didn't do. He was the scapegoat,,,as it will be proved.

[Nuala]

It was Jeremys' lack of gumption for not having seen through the police and the relatives who were looking for someone to blame for something he clearly didn't do. He was the scapegoat,,,as it will be proved.

I think 24 year old Jeremy believed he would be found innocent, Lookout, I don't believe he even considered the prospect of being found guilty.

[Jane]

No, it was her illness that made her a useful scapegoat.

Bridget, my understand of schizophrenics is that while they are on meds they are safe from the worst ravages of their illness. The minute they decide they no longer need meds can spell danger for themselves and others. When Sheila asked her doctor, a locum I believe, to adjust her meds, a chain of events with potentially tragic outcome was set in motion. Firstly, her meds should never have been halved, should not even have been reduced without strict monitoring. This appears not to have happened. Perhaps it was because Sheila wasn't within reach of her regular doctor, maybe she managed to avoid seeing any doctor or maybe her illness was tightening its' grip on her and she saw doctors as instruments of the Devil. For whatever reason, it seems she may have fallen through her safety net.

We know the farm wasn't a place of peace and harmony for her at the best of times, added to which, her boys didn't consider it their favourite place to be either and then during the drive, her estranged husband says he's met somebody else. Might she have felt that he was abandoning her. Hard enough for her to cope with on full meds, but expecting her to cope with all that stress without her full theraputic dose, would, IMO, be asking too much of her.

I think it can reasonably be assumed that by the time she reached the farm she was experiencing huge emotional turmoil which probably caused her illness to gain a tighter hold, which in turn, could have caused Sheila to loosen her grip on reality.

[Nuala]

Bridget, my understand of schizophrenics is that while they are on meds they are safe from the worst ravages of their illness. The minute they decide they no longer need meds can spell danger for themselves and others. When Sheila asked her doctor, a locum I believe, to adjust her meds, a chain of events with potentially tragic outcome was set in motion. Firstly, her meds should never have been halved, should not even have been reduced without strict monitoring. This appears not to have happened. Perhaps it was because Sheila wasn't within reach of her regular doctor, maybe she managed to avoid seeing any doctor or maybe her illness was tightening its' grip on her and she saw doctors as instruments of the Devil. For whatever reason, it seems she may have fallen through her safety net.

We know the farm wasn't a place of peace and harmony for her at the best of times, added to which, her boys didn't consider it their favourite place to be either and then during the drive, her estranged husband says he's met somebody else. Might she have felt that he was abandoning her. Hard enough for her to cope with on full meds, but expecting her to cope with all that stress without her full theraputic dose, would, IMO, be asking too much of her.

I think it can reasonably be assumed that by the time she reached the farm she was experiencing huge emotional turmoil which probably caused her illness to gain a tighter hold, which in turn, could have caused Sheila to loosen her grip on reality.

Excellent points, April. Claire Powell, a journalist who interviewed Sheila's London friends prior to deciding to write a book about the murders, says that there was a general expectation among Sheila's friends that Sheila and her ex husband would get together again, yet Sheila instead learned on that journey to WHF that Colin did not wish to reunite with her. She must have been devasted.

[Nuala]

Hi April1

Well thankfully my adoptive parents were all about practicality as is the case with my birth parents.  All liked and played sport and I'm sporty  . 

I think I must have missed out on a gene for artistry.  Furthermore I have 0 interest in fiction films, theatre, ballet, opera, literature, art etc.  I'm only interested in practical matters.  What does that make me: a rather sad individual I would say  :'( . I was truly hopeless at art etc at school. 

I like music, interior design, fashion, cooking and gardening though so I guess there may be some hope for me but I don't think I'll be invited to join the inner clique of the cultured ladies of the JB forum eg your good self, Nuala etc.

However, in terms of Sheila and Jeremy I think they were totally different to June and Nevill and whilst many adoptive parents wld support and encourage these differences I don't think this was the case here at least as far as June was concerned.  So they had to suppress their true "authentic" selves which I believe in Sheila's case led to her mental health issues.   . 

I can imagine that those who have not been adopted might have trouble in getting their heads round this but that's why I'm here and maybe you too April1?   

Lovely post egap, one I can relate to well because, although I was not adopted as a child, I always felt as though I was. My mother was not at all maternal so, until the age of 3 or 4, I was brought up by my grandparents. Then my parents moved away, my mother brought me up during school term times and I lived with my grandparents during school holidays. Term times were for me, the times when I repeatedly lost my mother, because that's what my grandmother had effectively become

[petey]

Hi April1

Well thankfully my adoptive parents were all about practicality as is the case with my birth parents.  All liked and played sport and I'm sporty  . 

I think I must have missed out on a gene for artistry.  Furthermore I have 0 interest in fiction films, theatre, ballet, opera, literature, art etc.  I'm only interested in practical matters.  What does that make me: a rather sad individual I would say  :'( . I was truly hopeless at art etc at school. 

I like music, interior design, fashion, cooking and gardening though so I guess there may be some hope for me but I don't think I'll be invited to join the inner clique of the cultured ladies of the JB forum eg your good self, Nuala etc.

However, in terms of Sheila and Jeremy I think they were totally different to June and Nevill and whilst many adoptive parents wld support and encourage these differences I don't think this was the case here at least as far as June was concerned.  So they had to suppress their true "authentic" selves which I believe in Sheila's case led to her mental health issues.   . 

I can imagine that those who have not been adopted might have trouble in getting their heads round this but that's why I'm here and maybe you too April1?   

Anyone who is sporty gets top marks in my book. I am massively sporty!