telephone logs.

[Neil]

If so then why does he not try to seize a rifle from the gun cupboard,or even unlock the back door and summon help..

Ermm........

[-Harters-]

Ermm........

I think he means if Ralph wasn't shot upstairs then why didn't he grab a gun or leave the house.

I think.

[Neil]

I think he means if Ralph wasn't shot upstairs then why didn't he grab a gun or leave the house.

I think.

Oh I know!  I was just struggling for an answer!

[-Harters-]

Oh I know!  I was just struggling for an answer!

Oh 

I don't think it works anyway, his blood was found on the wall upstairs on the landing and in the hall before you get to the kitchen door. So even in the unlikely event that cases were moved around as suggested by Mike, it wouldn't account for the blood stain locations.

[lebaleb]

I'd say it's misinterpretation rather than not being true.

This was actually discussed at trial, hence the calling of an expert witness.

I would say it is certainly not true that Jeremy claimed the call had been abandoned with the receiver left off the cradle. The calling of experts to testify that Jeremy would have been unable to make any calls until Ralph had hung up was obfuscation and a possibly deliberate attempt to make Jeremy look like a liar when in FACT he did not claim the receiver was left off the cradle. In my opinion, after calling Jeremy, Ralph was probably trying to contact a doctor to come and sedate Sheila when things started to go out of control.

[-Harters-]

Now Ralph contacted a Doctor? 

[Steve_uk]

Now Ralph contacted a Doctor? 

That's another good point. Why not call a doctor if he,Ralph(Nevill) had been shot?

[lebaleb]

Now Ralph contacted a Doctor? 

He MAY have been TRYING to contact a doctor.

[Bridget]

That's another good point. Why not call a doctor if he,Ralph(Nevill) had been shot?

If he had already been shot and others were in danger a 999 call would have got him both the police and an ambulance. I don't think he'd been shot when he made the call - you'd think he would have mentioned it.

[lookout]

He MAY have been TRYING to contact a doctor.

It's difficult to imagine what peoples' minds would be like at gone 3 in the morning,,,after maybe a couple of drinks and a " spliff ". Under normal circumstances you'd be confused at being wakened up at that hour.

[-Harters-]

He MAY have been TRYING to contact a doctor.

Oh, okay. Anybody else?

[andrea]

Not a chance, Harts. Neville would have called 999, thats it.

[grahameb]

I still can't envisage the circumstances in which a telephone call was made from White House Farm by Ralph(Nevill). Does he hear Sheila going into the twins' bedroom and hear the shots she fires into their bodies,then comes out onto the landing where he is shot four times,Sheila then goes into the master bedroom and shoots June,during which time Nevill manages to stagger downstairs..however he doesn't make for the gun cupboard but the telephone in the kitchen. Let's say Nevill at this stage knows he is wounded too badly to manipulate a gun,but with one hand can dial a number..it's an emergency situation as he relates to Jeremy that "Your sister has gone crazy and has got the gun" which is echoed in Jeremy's call to the Police from Goldhanger("You've got to help me..")..whilst Sheila is shooting June seven times Nevill manages to make another phone call to the Police,which is logged as "daughter gone berserk with one of my guns".

At this stage in the scenario therefore Nevill has already made two telephone calls from the kitchen. Nevill then has a little more time to twist his bloodstained watch off his wrist and hide it under the rug,before Sheila comes back into the kitchen where she bashes him brutally in the head,then fires three more times to finish him off.

I'm wondering why,when Nevill manages to get downstairs in a fight or flight situation if ever there was one he wastes time phoning what must have at least been a 7 figure number to Jeremy when one's only thought must be for the safety of those upstairs? The 999 number would have been in anyone's mind first especially since he is injured with his motor skills impaired. There is no blood on the downstairs phone,yet we know from the wristwatch that he had been wounded,unless he somehow in his dying moments manages to unfasten his wristwatch  and hide it under the rug.

I would suggest that it's far more likely that it was Jeremy whom Nevill heard moving about in the early hours of that morning and tried the bedroom phone which was disabled as Jeremy had already unplugged the kitchen phone which was later proved to be in working order. Nevill comes out of the bedroom and Jeremy shoot him four times,then goes into the master bedroom where June is shot seven times in total,the first as she is sat up in bed,one shot aimed straight between the eyes.

Nevill is then frogmarched downstairs by Jeremy to the kitchen- in Dr. Vanezis's report there are marks on Nevill's back to suggest that a hot rifle butt is held against his skin for a short period,where he is then assaulted with the rifle and left for dead. Nevill manages to release his wristwatch and hide it under the rug,hoping against hope that its bloodstained state might be useful to investigators. Jeremy then races back upstairs,finishes June off,hurries back downstairs and fires three more bullets into Nevill,which prove fatal.

I just don't see a scenario where Nevill makes any telephone calls to the Police that morning. I can see a scenario where another person,whether Jeremy or a hitman does make a call,with gloved hand on the kitchen phone to the cottage at Whitehanger,which if records do exist,would show that calls were made,but not by whom.

Well now knowing for sure that the technology was not only available to the police on that day but indeed was most likely used that day by the police because of their surveilance of Jeremy concerning his drugs dealings, then why did not the police produce these logs in court to prove undoubtedly that Jeremy was guilty? We must keep speculation that comes from our own limited reasonings to the minimum. These extra logs of Mikes categorically demonstrate that it was more than possible that the police had more information regarding these logs which they must have witheld from the court. It is almost inconceivable that because of operation Cool that they did not have access to such records and these telephone logs of Mikes that prove that.

[Neil]

There are documents held under PII, which I believe the CCRC can insist on looking at.

There are documents that have been withheld but which are not under PII.  Can the CCRC insist on seeing these or have they already done so?  How can these documents be legitimately withheld?

[grahameb]

There are documents held under PII, which I believe the CCRC can insist on looking at.

There are documents that have been withheld but which are not under PII.  Can the CCRC insist on seeing these or have they already done so?  How can these documents be legitimately withheld?

It is a recorded fact that the CCRC have not used their powers to demand that the police give up certain documents. The police have simply refused to hand them over and the CCRC have gone along with this. THAT IS THEIR FAILURE as far as I am concerned and they can be condemned for that obstruction of justice as far I I am concerned. It was that act that lost all my respect for that body.