Telephone calls

[Steve_uk]

Yes Steve, Jeremy Bamber clearly had a long history of escalating violence.  The warning signs were there but went unheeded.  One thing is clear, it was very clever of him to use a .22 weapon, enabling a much higher risk of resistance among his victims, with a resulting prolonged episode in the farmhouse and more opportunities for his plan to go wrong.

But don't you see Roch that it had to be the .22 anschutz because the whole point of Jeremy's case was that Sheila had grabbed this rifle that Jeremy had just "lackadaisically" in his own words left on the settle in the kitchen just a few hours before on the pretext of shooting rabbits. Jeremy had the scenario all worked out,which is why he tried to get Sheila to handle guns previously and is the first to plant the idea in the Police's heads that it was Sheila who had "gone berserk with a gun".

[maggie]

Yes Maggie, but he also said...............'I should never turn my back on that young man'

Hearsay.... moe we don't know if it was said, in what context it was said, what he meant and was thinking about when he said it.  I agree the 'nancy boy' statement was also hearsay but there's no record of Jeremy being violent, agressive, argumentative, cold...anything.

[Roch]

But don't you see Roch that it had to be the .22 anschutz because the whole point of Jeremy's case was that Sheila had grabbed this rifle that Jeremy had just "lackadaisically" in his own words left on the settle in the kitchen just a few hours before on the pretext of shooting rabbits. Jeremy had the scenario all worked out,which is why he tried to get Sheila to handle guns previously and is the first to plant the idea in the Police's heads that it was Sheila who had "gone berserk with a gun".

I can see where you are coming from Steve.  But I suspect that what has happened here is that upon becoming under suspicion and malice aforethought from his wider adoptive relatives, everything Jeremy Bamber ever did or said previously, suddenly became interpreted in light of him being a mass murderer.  Previous cvonverstaions and actions took on a sinister bent, whereas before non had existed.  it#s extremely flakey to use the 'getting Sheila to handle a gun' in my opinion.  It could have been completely innocent. 

BTW, either you or Moe owe me a massive apology?

[maggie]

I can see where you are coming from Steve.  But I suspect that what has happened here is that upon becoming under suspicion and malice aforethought from his wider adoptive relatives, everything Jeremy Bamber ever did or said previously, suddenly became interpreted in light of him being a mass murderer.  Previous cvonverstaions and actions took on a sinister bent, whereas before non had existed.  it#s extremely flakey to use the 'getting Sheila to handle a gun' in my opinion.  It could have been completely innocent. 

BTW, either you or Moe owe me a massive apology?

That is so true, Roch.  Once Jeremy came under suspicion everything is interpreted in that light...hence anything remembered can be misinterpreted, even remembered wrongly and then misinterpreted....chinese whispers, not proof.

[Steve_uk]

That is so true, Roch.  Once Jeremy came under suspicion everything is interpreted in that light...hence anything remembered can be misinterpreted, even remembered wrongly and then misinterpreted....chinese whispers, not proof.

But this is five murders not just one. It's three generations of a family wiped out in a few minutes by a man who according to his girlfriend had discussed various ways of killing them for the past year. That was independent of the relatives. None of us knew Sheila personally and with her mother also slain it's natural for the remaining relatives to have a view on such a tragedy. We would all have a gut feeling about a relative if it had been one of ours and the consensus was that the relatives thought that Sheila couldn't have done it.

[tyler]

But this is five murders not just one. It's three generations of a family wiped out in a few minutes by a man who according to his girlfriend had discussed various ways of killing them for the past year. That was independent of the relatives. None of us knew Sheila personally and with her mother also slain it's natural for the remaining relatives to have a view on such a tragedy. We would all have a gut feeling about a relative if it had been one of ours and the consensus was that the relatives thought that Sheila couldn't have done it.

But AE in her statement says that she could image Sheila going beserk with a shotgun (or words to that effect),but became suspicious upon discovering that the murder weapon was actually a simple to use semi automatic rifle?

[maggie]

But this is five murders not just one. It's three generations of a family wiped out in a few minutes by a man who according to his girlfriend had discussed various ways of killing them for the past year. That was independent of the relatives. None of us knew Sheila personally and with her mother also slain it's natural for the remaining relatives to have a view on such a tragedy. We would all have a gut feeling about a relative if it had been one of ours and the consensus was that the relatives thought that Sheila couldn't have done it.

People have views on all sorts of thing for all sorts of reasons.  That is why we all have differing views.  We're moulded by our own experiences as to how we process information and come to decisions...also Jeremy had been viewed as a 'cuckoo' by some of the extended family due to his status as adopted child.  It seems neither child was really accepted as equals to blood relatives by the extended family but they were obviously that to their parents....so there was some resentment there.

[maggie]

But AE in her statement says that she could image Sheila going beserk with a shotgun (or words to that effect),but became suspicious upon discovering that the murder weapon was actually a simple to use semi automatic rifle?

Hi Tyler, yes AE did say that but there was so much ignorance about Sheila's illness that there seemed to be an impression that poor little sheila couldn't have used a gun.  D'you think even now they have any idea about what happens in a full blown psychotic episode?...

[Steve_uk]

But AE in her statement says that she could image Sheila going beserk with a shotgun (or words to that effect),but became suspicious upon discovering that the murder weapon was actually a simple to use semi automatic rifle?

No I think it was the two male relatives Peter Eaton and Robert Boutflour who admitted to DS Stan Jones that they thought it was possible. I still think it extremely unlikely,to use lawyers' language beyond reasonable doubt,that she did do it. Ann Eaton said Sheila "couldn't put beans on toast"..she was impractical,rarely helped around the house,was not the best mother all due to her mental health problems. I just don't see her having the physical or mental wherewithal to do it.

[maggie]

No I think it was the two male relatives Peter Eaton and Robert Boutflour who admitted to DS Stan Jones that they thought it was possible. I still think it extremely unlikely,to use lawyers' language beyond reasonable doubt,that she did do it. Ann Eaton said Sheila "couldn't put beans on toast"..she was impractical,rarely helped around the house,was not the best mother all due to her mental health problems. I just don't see her having the physical or mental wherewithal to do it.

Steve this has been written many times but actually Sheila could put makeup on her face every day, she could put nail varnish on her fingers.  Maybe she didn't want to put beans on toast, she was capable enough and in a psychotic episode she would believe she could fly, she probably wouldn't be aware as you or I would be about what she was doing.  She very well may have showered after she had killed, did her nails, her own little world goodness knows what she may have done.  I'm not saying she did b ut I am saying she could have.  Niether would I accuse Sheila of murder whatever happened was due to illness and she was a victim too.

[Roch]

No I think it was the two male relatives Peter Eaton and Robert Boutflour who admitted to DS Stan Jones that they thought it was possible. I still think it extremely unlikely,to use lawyers' language beyond reasonable doubt,that she did do it. Ann Eaton said Sheila "couldn't put beans on toast"..she was impractical,rarely helped around the house,was not the best mother all due to her mental health problems. I just don't see her having the physical or mental wherewithal to do it.

DB and a non material witness both either stated  or expressed that JB wouldn't have the gumption to carry out the killings.

[boheme]

People have views on all sorts of thing for all sorts of reasons.  That is why we all have differing views.  We're moulded by our own experiences as to how we process information and come to decisions...also Jeremy had been viewed as a 'cuckoo' by some of the extended family due to his status as adopted child.  It seems neither child was really accepted as equals to blood relatives by the extended family but they were obviously that to their parents....so there was some resentment there.

Did Ralf and June really like Sheila and Jeremy - perhaps when they were young but at the time of the killings Ralf thought JB was a nancy boy who he did not trust and June chastised Sheila mercilessly after she caught her in the fileds with the farm hand ? I would like some proof that either of the parents loved their adopted children, all impressions are that they did not.

[susan]

Hi boheme  I think Ralph and June loved Sheila and Jeremy in the only way they knew how and that was to give them the best start in life which they did.  Maybe they were in some respects slightly disappointed at times with the behaviour of Sheila and Jeremy but most parents go through that and it does not stop them from loving them love cannot be turned off like a tap.

[maggie]

Did Ralf and June really like Sheila and Jeremy - perhaps when they were young but at the time of the killings Ralf thought JB was a nancy boy who he did not trust and June chastised Sheila mercilessly after she caught her in the fileds with the farm hand ? I would like some proof that either of the parents loved their adopted children, all impressions are that they did not.

Why would June and Ralph not love their children.  I'm sure they loved them very much even if they, like most teernagers, exasperated them at times.  Sheila's illness must have made her very difficult to understand but actually most parents of adopted children are commited to their children at least as much as any other parent.  June and Ralph seemed to be always helping them out, providing them with places to live etc..  I believe they did their best even if they were sometimes misguided but all parents make mistakes and don't particularly understand their children, iot doesn't mean they don't love them.imho

[maggie]

Hi boheme  I think Ralph and June loved Sheila and Jeremy in the only way they knew how and that was to give them the best start in life which they did.  Maybe they were in some respects slightly disappointed at times with the behaviour of Sheila and Jeremy but most parents go through that and it does not stop them from loving them love cannot be turned off like a tap.

Great minds susie