Author Topic: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF  (Read 248064 times)

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Offline ajross

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #810 on: June 12, 2012, 09:26:PM »



Hello, ajross. I am conversant with client confidentiality.

I see.

Offline Patti

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #811 on: June 12, 2012, 09:31:PM »
Patti, hi and your words are really kind, thank you. I watched the video. Had I not known in advance what It was about, I would have said he was a reasonable young man!!!! That's chilling in itself. I read some of Hare's papers at college, he was probably one of those who convinced me that psychopathy is a mixture of socialization and genetics, actually he could have been speaking of my mother, who was truly incapable of considering anybody elses feelings in any way, other than how they impacted on her. I'm certain she was on the psychopathic spectrum.

I was told something today which I found, at best thought provoking, at worst, chilling. I hope you don't mind if I run it by you. I was paid a visit by the person who manages the complex where I live. Still in my jarmies and on line, I explained what it was that was holding my interest-and discovered just how small the world is. She had previously worked for a mental health trust whose senior psychiatrists were required to assess prisoners deemed to have committed serious crimes. Two of their number visited Jeremy and both assessed him as a psychopath. I pointed out that he had been tested on 27(?) different occasions and the results for psychopathy were negative. She said that none of those tests were random and had all been done at Jeremy's request and he knew when they were going to happen which would have enabled him to have control of how he
 presented himself. She did however, agree that there is room for doubt, she was fully aware of the cock up made by EP, and she agreed that being a psychopath doesn't necessarily make him a killer........

......Which is the one thing I would take the video to task over. I know it was sensationalism to hold the viewers attention, but I think she rather overstressed the potential danger of psychopaths, when we know the vast majority are out there, living their lives, albeit with a different mindset, like the rest of us.

At the moment, I probably put microchips in the same catagory as chemical castration, genetic engineering and embryonic research.

Hi april, we have to be very careful I suppose in our diagnosis of saying someone is a psychopath, for the definitions covers a multitude of personalities and behaviour pattens.  We also have to remain bias. In the case of JB I am not 100% sure, if I can be honest it has crossed my mind, but I am not an expert, so I can't say categorically that he is or anyone that I know is.....

In the case of the two psychiatrists that you mention who made an assessment on Jeremy, I can only say that she had doubt and where there is doubt, there might not be conviction enough to diagnose that he is a psychopath, the diagnosis fails at the first hurdle, because she cannot commit herself to say she is 100% sure....Can you see where I am coming from?  :) :) :)

Offline ajross

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #812 on: June 12, 2012, 09:34:PM »
It's a hard one. They lost the case so  they didn't do perfectly. Is that because they didn't attack the correct aspects of the case or because they had so much information withheld from them that they had their hands tied behind their back? Could be a bit of both.
Maybe the Jury didn't like the look of Bamber - and trusted Julie more.
I don't think the original defence team ever did enough to prove innocence.

Have you read Wilkes' book Mat? I just wondered, nothing more. It is interesting how he talks about the acceptance of the case and their way of handling it. They seemed to have their hands tied due to the phone call issue but Wilkes writes that the problem was that JB mentioned Sheila by name. It may be that Wilkes just got this wrong. However, he also says that they didn't want to directly question the police investigation as that had first found JB innocent. What I find more questinable is that "it was a matter of pride to Geoffrey Rivlin that he had never turned down a brief to defend a man accused of murder" and that he "refused to believe it was unwinnable" not he believed that JB was undoubtedly innocent.

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #813 on: June 12, 2012, 09:36:PM »
Have you read Wilkes' book Mat? I just wondered, nothing more. It is interesting how he talks about the acceptance of the case and their way of handling it. They seemed to have their hands tied due to the phone call issue but Wilkes writes that the problem was that JB mentioned Sheila by name. It may be that Wilkes just got this wrong. However, he also says that they didn't want to directly question the police investigation as that had first found JB innocent. What I find more questinable is that "it was a matter of pride to Geoffrey Rivlin that he had never turned down a brief to defend a man accused of murder" and that he "refused to believe it was unwinnable" not he believed that JB was undoubtedly innocent.

I haven't read the book. Do you think it would change my opinion of the defence team or just give me a better insight into them?

Offline maggie

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #814 on: June 12, 2012, 09:41:PM »
Hi april, we have to be very careful I suppose in our diagnosis of saying someone is a psychopath, for the definitions covers a multitude of personalities and behaviour pattens.  We also have to remain bias. In the case of JB I am not 100% sure, if I can be honest it has crossed my mind, but I am not an expert, so I can't say categorically that he is or anyone that I know is.....

In the case of the two psychiatrists that you mention who made an assessment on Jeremy, I can only say that she had doubt and where there is doubt, there might not be conviction enough to diagnose that he is a psychopath, the diagnosis fails at the first hurdle, because she cannot commit herself to say she is 100% sure....Can you see where I am coming from?  :) :) :)
Patti, all official reports of Jeremy Bamber carried out when in prison have concluded that Jeremy shows no sign of psychopathy or any other psychiatric or psychological disorder.  Again and again, people who insist Jeremy to be guilty play the psychopath card even though this has been found to be unfounded over and over again.  No one has a clue whether this woman knew first hand what she was talking about or whether it was repeated information.  It is hearsay and therefore has to be dismissed as meaningless. imho

Offline Jane

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #815 on: June 12, 2012, 09:42:PM »
Hi april, we have to be very careful I suppose in our diagnosis of saying someone is a psychopath, for the definitions covers a multitude of personalities and behaviour pattens.  We also have to remain bias. In the case of JB I am not 100% sure, if I can be honest it has crossed my mind, but I am not an expert, so I can't say categorically that he is or anyone that I know is.....

In the case of the two psychiatrists that you mention who made an assessment on Jeremy, I can only say that she had doubt and where there is doubt, there might not be conviction enough to diagnose that he is a psychopath, the diagnosis fails at the first hurdle, because she cannot commit herself to say she is 100% sure....Can you see where I am coming from?  :) :) :)


Yes, Patti, very perceptive and entirely correct.......and Yes, despite the need to change my glasses I can see clearly where you're coming from.

Offline Patti

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #816 on: June 12, 2012, 09:50:PM »
Patti, all official reports of Jeremy Bamber carried out when in prison have concluded that Jeremy shows no sign of psychopathy or any other psychiatric or psychological disorder.  Again and again, people who insist Jeremy to be guilty play the psychopath card even though this has been found to be unfounded over and over again.  No one has a clue whether this woman knew first hand what she was talking about or whether it was repeated information.  It is hearsay and therefore has to be dismissed as meaningless. imho

Hi maggie :) I know he has been tested and not been diagnosed as having psychopathy. I was just being honest in the fact it had crossed my mind at one point, what I should have said was, it was before I knew that he had been tested.  I am off to bed maggie....there is not enough hours in a day...speak tomorrow...X

Offline ajross

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #817 on: June 12, 2012, 09:50:PM »
I haven't read the book. Do you think it would change my opinion of the defence team or just give me a better insight into them?

So far I don't think that you need to read the book, I don't think it will tell you anything you don't already know, there are some sort of witness statements assessing Sheila which may or may not have been looked at in great detail but overall it all seems to be on here. What is more is that it would only cement your current opinion and you seem confident enough in your views and explanations to not need that.

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #818 on: June 12, 2012, 09:51:PM »
So far I don't think that you need to read the book, I don't think it will tell you anything you don't already know, there are some sort of witness statements assessing Sheila which may or may not have been looked at in great detail but overall it all seems to be on here. What is more is that it would only cement your current opinion and you seem confident enough in your views and explanations to not need that.

Ah, thanks. It might be a good point of reference though.

Offline Patti

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #819 on: June 12, 2012, 09:52:PM »
So far I don't think that you need to read the book, I don't think it will tell you anything you don't already know, there are some sort of witness statements assessing Sheila which may or may not have been looked at in great detail but overall it all seems to be on here. What is more is that it would only cement your current opinion and you seem confident enough in your views and explanations to not need that.

I must get that book..... :) :) :)

Offline ajross

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #820 on: June 12, 2012, 09:54:PM »
So far I don't think that you need to read the book, I don't think it will tell you anything you don't already know, there are some sort of witness statements assessing Sheila which may or may not have been looked at in great detail but overall it all seems to be on here. What is more is that it would only cement your current opinion and you seem confident enough in your views and explanations to not need that.

No doubt you also know a great deal about the original defence team as well. Another worrying comment from Wilkes was that one of the people approached knew that it would be a landmark case in the career of a lawyer. I have to say that Stan Jones is the only person coming off in a positive light at the moment

Offline Patti

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #821 on: June 12, 2012, 09:55:PM »
Do you think books are a good guide to the truth, when there is documented evidence available to the public?  :) :) :)

Offline ajross

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #822 on: June 12, 2012, 09:56:PM »
Do we know who was responsible for Sheila's pregnancy/ies which led to the miscarriage/s?

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #823 on: June 12, 2012, 09:57:PM »
Do you think books are a good guide to the truth, when there is documented evidence available to the public?  :) :) :)

Books can be good to help clarify the evidence. IMO. you can learn why someone said what in a statement and exactly what they meant by it.

Offline Patti

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Re: Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF
« Reply #824 on: June 12, 2012, 10:04:PM »
Do we know who was responsible for Sheila's pregnancy/ies which led to the miscarriage/s?

Hi AJ

I have read Colin's book and according to him, he was the father of the said two abortions and one miscarriage.

One abortion when she 17yrs unmarried. One miscarriage a couple of months after they got married and the second abortion was during their marriage, due to an infection...then she had the twins.  :) :)