Book Reviews - Murders/Suicide at WHF

[Jane]

Although quite clearly, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that her medication and care were inadequate. Nothing at all.

I don't see Sheilas apparent lethargy and quietness as evidence that she was 'acting strange', I think it's a fair conclusion that it was due to the side effects of the higher dose of Haloperidol, the very same reason that Sheila requested that her medication be lowered.

I feel sure we will agree that medical errors occur, and when they do it often results in tragedy for somebody. I have a strong sense here of a belief system being clung onto at all costs because admitting that it MAY be flawed raises many "what ifs" and "supposings." I think  it could be quite scary.

Lelebab, egap and I have all given instances of what CAN happen in the crucial adjustment period in the alteration of meds. No doubt, the experts involved in those cases believed they had made the right decisions, it was only when things went wrong that it was possible they hadn't. Medication, of itself, may be an exact science. The body's reaction to it isn't.

My focus hasn't been entirely on what happened at WHF, but wider and with the families of other scizophrenics on whom tragedy has fallen because of medication. I've never stated that THIS happened because....... I've said it was POSSIBLE that this happened because.......Whilst I'm convinced that you're unlikely to move from your own stance of it COULDN,T have happened, I believe that had a jury been offered this information, they may have thought otherwise.

[-Harters-]

Withdrawal isnt always a classic symptom of psychosis.

Not that it really matters, but Haloperidol isn't usually used to treat social withdrawal, which is not by itself a psychotic symptom.

[andrea]

Thats true, Harts.

According to witness statements, Sheila was seen skipping along happily with her children that day.

[andrea]

We only have Bambers word that a discussion took place regarding the twins being adopted.

If Sheila had done the deed, through fear of being seperated from her twins, she would have done it in her own house, she would have killed ONLY herself and her twins, she would have laid next to them then killed herself.

There wouldnt have been the carnage that happened at WHf, june and neville would still be here.

[-Harters-]

I feel sure we will agree that medical errors occur, and when they do it often results in tragedy for somebody. I have a strong sense here of a belief system being clung onto at all costs because admitting that it MAY be flawed raises many "what ifs" and "supposings." I think  it could be quite scary.

Lelebab, egap and I have all given instances of what CAN happen in the crucial adjustment period in the alteration of meds. No doubt, the experts involved in those cases believed they had made the right decisions, it was only when things went wrong that it was possible they hadn't. Medication, of itself, may be an exact science. The body's reaction to it isn't.

My focus hasn't been entirely on what happened at WHF, but wider and with the families of other scizophrenics on whom tragedy has fallen because of medication. I've never stated that THIS happened because....... I've said it was POSSIBLE that this happened because.......Whilst I'm convinced that you're unlikely to move from your own stance of it COULDN,T have happened, I believe that had a jury been offered this information, they may have thought otherwise.

I absolutely agree that medical negligence occurs and continues to do so. In fact I have recent personal experience of just that, with an extremely tragic outcome. So please believe me when I say I agree with you on that.

However, that does not relate to the situation with Sheila. There is nothing to suggest that anything went wrong, either through the medical care administered to Sheila or by her own actions or inactions.

You can't just say that medical negligence occurs elsewhere, therefore it did here.

Refer to previous chicken and egg analogy.

[Jane]

We only have Bambers word that a discussion took place regarding the twins being adopted.

If Sheila had done the deed, through fear of being seperated from her twins, she would have done it in her own house, she would have killed ONLY herself and her twins, she would have laid next to them then killed herself.

There wouldnt have been the carnage that happened at WHf, june and neville would still be here.

Hello, Andrea. This view would seem to say that Sheila made a conscious, thought out decision to kill her children and then herself. What I am offering as a possibility, is that she did NOT. That what she may have done was out of her hands. Given that fear is a major componant of scizophrenia combined with a possibility of "the voices", perhaps telling her she was under attack or.........I don't want to imagine because I feel that it's too horrendous a place to be.

You're correct in saying that we only have Jeremy's word for what happened at supper that evening, nonetheless, it IS a possible scenario. There is NO proof that Jeremy returned to the farm later that night, but THAT scenario was accepted.

[lebaleb]

Withdrawal isnt always a classic symptom of psychosis.

Sorry to be pedantic but something is either classic or it isn't. It can't sometimes be classic. In the episodes I have witnessed a catatonic state occurs before or after periods of more violent behavior. Not a symptom of general Psychosis but of an episode of more extreem behavior.

[-Harters-]

Hello, Andrea. This view would seem to say that Sheila made a conscious, thought out decision to kill her children and then herself. What I am offering as a possibility, is that she did NOT. That what she may have done was out of her hands. Given that fear is a major componant of scizophrenia combined with a possibility of "the voices", perhaps telling her she was under attack or.........I don't want to imagine because I feel that it's too horrendous a place to be.

You're correct in saying that we only have Jeremy's word for what happened at supper that evening, nonetheless, it IS a possible scenario. There is NO proof that Jeremy returned to the farm later that night, but THAT scenario was accepted.

Nevertheless, it is all speculation, in fact it's speculation about speculation.

If you are going to entertain that as a possible scenario, then you surely must have to equally entertain the scenario that Sheila didn't have an 'episode' at all.

Without going over it all in this thread, there is overwhelming evidence that Jeremy was responsible, as cited by the various trial and appeal judgements.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Sheila had an 'episode' on the night in question, nothing at all. I'm really not sure how else I can convey that. 

You may disagree with the evidence against Jeremy, but that's just tough, it doesn't then give the defence licence to convert their own speculation into anything tangible without any other justification for doing so.

It would be like the argument that 93% of murders are carried out by males, if the culprit here was either Jeremy or Sheila, then there is 93% chance that it was Jeremy right? No of course not, for exactly the same reasons given above, it doesn't work like that.

Anyway, it seems I'm banging my head against a brick wall and I'm not actually asking you to agree with my views at all, you certainly don't have to do that. 

[Jane]

Anyway, it seems I'm banging my head against a brick wall and I'm not actually asking you to agree with my views at all, you certainly don't have to do that. 

It seems we are both doing the same thing for different reasons!!!!!

[-Harters-]

It seems we are both doing the same thing for different reasons!!!!!

Perhaps so. 

[lookout]

If anyone was covered in blood that night,,,including their feet,it was June.

[susan]

Hi lookout  what you said about June being covered in blood is food for thought

[lookout]

Hi lookout  what you said about June being covered in blood is food for thought

Hi Susan,,,I've had her " in the picture " for some time now,,,and the fact that it was posted yesterday about her having had ECT clinched it for me.
Without sounding,and appearing flippant,,,it was like a " free for all " on the night of the murders. Like they all killed each other. Apart from those little ones of course.
Whichever way you look at it,,,there was some " domestic " going on that night,,with the most tragic of circumstances,,,and the two women were of the same psychotic patterning,,,obsessed with religion.
I haven't read about any medication that June was taking,,yet she must have been using something as it was only 2 years prior to the murders that she,herself was hospitalized.

[lookout]

It wouldn't have been beyond the bounds of impossibility for June to have had a relapse given the strain she was under and the uncertainty of Sheilas' and the twins futures.
I wonder why Nevill was " snappy " that night as well.

[lebaleb]

According to Pamela Boutflour Sheila was not behaving normally that evening. Jeremy says Sheila just sat at the table without comment while June was talking about the possibility the twins might end up being fostered [as she had mentioned to Mrs Brencher]. June states she was concerned about Sheila's health and also said Sheila was taking no interest in the boys or doing housework... catatonic?