Grounds for not referring Jeremy Bamber’s case back to the appeal court.

[curiousessex]

Mike

If Jeremy made a call at 3.36am.

You posted a video which details a car journey of 7 mins and 17 seconds in terms of driving from Goldhanger to White House Farm. This drive is within the speed limit and no faster. The 7 mins 17 seconds do not include any timings for collecting car keys, leaving a property, locking the house up, unlocking a car and starting the engine. (Neither does it inlcude any time Jeremy may have had to use in getting dressed to meet the Police as they had requested he meet them there. Up and until this time Jeremy, presumably, would not have known he would be required at the Farm to meet the Police as he was merely reporting a telephone call from his father - Remember Jeremy claims he was awoken by a call from his father)

Jeremy has detailed he was kept on hold for 11 minutes whilst Essex Police were dealing with his report of receiving a telephone call from his father.

You have posted on this forum Jeremy arrived at White House Farm at 3.52 am. The Police detailed Jeremy arrived just after the Police at White House Farm. It is logged the Police arrived at 3.48 am

By simple addition

3.36 am + 11 minutes = 3.47 am

3.47 am + 7 mins 17seconds = 3.54 am 17 seconds .......... at the very earliest.


3.54 am and 17 seconds is not 3.52 am which is your time for Jeremy's arrival at White House Farm

Please explain why the above is incorrect.

[mike tesko]

There has been no explanation forthcoming from PC West to account for the differences in the body of the messages, given at 3:36am, and 3:26am, respectively, to satisfy anyones curiosity that both calls could have been made by one, and the same person. If the same person made both calls, or if both records related to the same call, and there was only a dispute about the timing of th call, the content of the message would have been exactly the same except for the time...

Definitely two different calls, made by two different people - Ralph and Jeremy...

How can the contents of the message, and the times the call was allegedly made, both be different, if the same person made the two calls, or the call was a reference to the only call made?

No, absolute nonsense. You won't convince me on this one so there isn't much point in trying.

There are logs for one call to the police and nothing more.

---------------------------

But you are completely wrong, there are two records, one timed at 3:26am, and the other timed at 3:36am - the contents of both are completely different...

If it was a reference to the same call, the only difference would be the time...

Why would PC West make two completely different and contrasting reports, about the same alleged call?

The sender box on the log is very clear. one sender was jeremy on the log timed at 3:36, the sender on the log timed at 3:26 is pc1990, The call from Jeremy is mentioned at 3:26.

-----------------------

Details of sender are irrelevant - its the contents in the message that is important, and the different times that both calls were made...

How could such a dramatic difference be recorded in both records apparently made 10 minutes apart, if the call came from the same person? You could not make such blatant errors by recording the contents of the same alleged call, twice in such a short period of time, ten minutes apart...

In my opinion...

[Hartley]

How do you explain that JB's call is mentioned on the 3:26 log whrn it isnt going to take place for another ten minites.

The message sender is unimportant?

[curiousessex]

Mike

If Jeremy made a call at 3.36am.

You posted a video which details a car journey of 7 mins and 17 seconds in terms of driving from Goldhanger to White House Farm. This drive is within the speed limit and no faster. The 7 mins 17 seconds do not include any timings for collecting car keys, leaving a property, locking the house up, unlocking a car and starting the engine. (Neither does it inlcude any time Jeremy may have had to use in getting dressed to meet the Police as they had requested he meet them there. Up and until this time Jeremy, presumably, would not have known he would be required at the Farm to meet the Police as he was merely reporting a telephone call from his father - Remember Jeremy claims he was awoken by a call from his father)

Jeremy has detailed he was kept on hold for 11 minutes whilst Essex Police were dealing with his report of receiving a telephone call from his father.

You have posted on this forum Jeremy arrived at White House Farm at 3.52 am. The Police detailed Jeremy arrived just after the Police at White House Farm. It is logged the Police arrived at 3.48 am

By simple addition

3.36 am + 11 minutes = 3.47 am

3.47 am + 7 mins 17seconds = 3.54 am 17 seconds .......... at the very earliest.


3.54 am and 17 seconds is not 3.52 am which is your time for Jeremy's arrival at White House Farm

Please explain why the above is incorrect.

Hartley......... What do you think re the above?

[mike tesko]

Mike

If Jeremy made a call at 3.36am.

You posted a video which details a car journey of 7 mins and 17 seconds in terms of driving from Goldhanger to White House Farm. This drive is within the speed limit and no faster. The 7 mins 17 seconds do not include any timings for collecting car keys, leaving a property, locking the house up, unlocking a car and starting the engine. (Neither does it inlcude any time Jeremy may have had to use in getting dressed to meet the Police as they had requested he meet them there. Up and until this time Jeremy, presumably, would not have known he would be required at the Farm to meet the Police as he was merely reporting a telephone call from his father - Remember Jeremy claims he was awoken by a call from his father)

Jeremy has detailed he was kept on hold for 11 minutes whilst Essex Police were dealing with his report of receiving a telephone call from his father.

You have posted on this forum Jeremy arrived at White House Farm at 3.52 am. The Police detailed Jeremy arrived just after the Police at White House Farm. It is logged the Police arrived at 3.48 am

By simple addition

3.36 am + 11 minutes = 3.47 am

3.47 am + 7 mins 17seconds = 3.54 am 17 seconds .......... at the very earliest.


3.54 am and 17 seconds is not 3.52 am which is your time for Jeremy's arrival at White House Farm

Please explain why the above is incorrect.

---------------------------------------------

Because your calculations do not take into account the fact that in real time, nobody was keeping a check on the time...

There is absolutely no records at all that PC west kept Jeremy talking on the telephone for 11 minutes, or any proven time that Jeremy concluded his call to the police, or when exactly he left his cottage, or when he arrived at the scene...

All the times referred to are estimated, not precise times...

It is accepted by the police at the scene, that Jeremy arrived there at about 3:52am, but exactly who was keeping time, is anybodies guess?

If police at the scene had watches, and Jeremy was wearing a watch, how can anybody be absolutely sure whether or not that all their watches were accurately synchronized so that any time referred to, (by anybody and everybody) was an absolute time?

You also have the problem of PC West claiming the clock in the control, room was ten minutes fast...

If the time recorded on one of the phone logs, which records the time of dispatch and arrival at the scene, by various officers, was the time recorded 10 minutes fast, or slow, or whatever?

If it took Jeremy, about seven minutes to drive from his cottage to the farm, he could easily have got there by 3:52am, particularly if he drove there at a speed faster than the speed limit.  When I drove along that route, it took me over 7 minutes, but I was adhering to the speed limit, and if Jeremy drove that route quicker on the night question, there is no reason at all why he could not have got there in five minutes, or less...

Another thing worth taking into account, when trying to fathom out periods of time which elapsed between one alleged event and another, is that time between two specific points can be interpreted differently...

An example of this, is where someone might say there are ten minutes difference between 3:45 and 3:55am, whereas, someone else might point out that there could be as many as 12 minutes between the two specified time:-


3:45 ---------------------------------------------------- (another 59 seconds here)
3:46 - 1 minute
3:47 - 2 minutes
3:48 - 3 minutes
3:49 - 4 minutes
3:50 - 5 minutes
3:51 - 6 minutes
3:52 - 7 minutes
3:53 - 8 minutes
3:54 - 9 minutes
3:55 - 10 minutes
3:56 ----------------------------------------------------- (another 59 seconds here)

For all we know, or anybody knows, Jeremy's reference to the police keeping him held on the line for 11 minutes. could simply have been a figure of speech...

[curiousessex]

The 3.26 am telephone log details the Police arrived at White House Farm at 3.48 am.

Relatively speaking the control room clock possibly being 10 minutes fast or slow is irrelevant because it is the time difference of 22 minutes which becomes the fact.

There is a lot to fit in within this 22 minute timeframe.


Re - "If it took Jeremy, about seven minutes to drive from his cottage to the farm, he could easily have got there by 3:52am, particularly if he drove there at a speed faster than the speed limit.  When I drove along that route, it took me over 7 minutes, but I was adhering to the speed limit, and if Jeremy drove that route quicker on the night question, there is no reason at all why he could not have got there in five minutes, or less..."

I think I recall it documented in "Blood Relations" that the Police overtook Jeremy on his way to the Farm and he was not driving fast or with any excessive speed given the speed limit. I also beleive the Police overtook Jeremy just before they turned into Pages Lane........ I could be wrong

[mike tesko]

The 3.26 am telephone log details the Police arrived at White House Farm at 3.48 am.

Relatively speaking the control room clock possibly being 10 minutes fast or slow is irrelevant because it is the time difference of 22 minutes which becomes the fact.

There is a lot to fit in within this 22 minute timeframe.


Re - "If it took Jeremy, about seven minutes to drive from his cottage to the farm, he could easily have got there by 3:52am, particularly if he drove there at a speed faster than the speed limit.  When I drove along that route, it took me over 7 minutes, but I was adhering to the speed limit, and if Jeremy drove that route quicker on the night question, there is no reason at all why he could not have got there in five minutes, or less..."

I think I recall it documented in "Blood Relations" that the Police overtook Jeremy on his way to the Farm and he was not driving fast or with any excessive speed given the speed limit. I also beleive the Police overtook Jeremy just before they turned into Pages Lane........ I could be wrong

---------------------------------------

Yes, it is very easy for someone to deceive another, by not making mention of the fact that when Jeremy left his cottage, he had been instructed by the police to go to the farm, where he would be met by police officers who had already been dispatched to the scene. It is important to note that the police did not tell Jeremy that police were being dispatched to the scene, but rather they told him that police had already been dispatched there. So, off Jeremy sets to the farmhouse with the advice of the police still ringing in his ears - if you get there before the police you must not enter the farmhouse, or approach it until the police arrive there...

Anyway, off Jeremy goes, and he is driving along, along the winding Tollsbury Road, when he sees the blue flashing lights of a police car, hurtling along in the road behind him, so he does the natural thing which anyone would do, he slows down to let the police car over take him - this is the explanation for why the patrol car overtook Jeremy, en route to the scene...

Nothing remotely sinister at all, in any of his actions, that night...

[curiousessex]

So the 7 minutes 17 seconds is a reasonable time for the journey between Goldhanger and White House Farm.

For instance this being a time for a journey which a jury would beleive most likely.

[mike tesko]

So the 7 minutes 17 seconds is a reasonable time for the journey between Goldhanger and White House Farm.

For instance this being a time for a journey which a jury would beleive most likely.

-------------------------------

Yes, and if Jeremy got to the farm at about 3:52am, he could easily have made the call to PC West at 3:36am, and left his cottage at about 3:45am, and been on the phone to the police for about 11 minutes, give or take a couple of minutes either way...

It wouldn't take long for anyone to get dressed, grab car keys and get out into the car and set off to go to the scene, as instructed by the police...

Less than a minute to do all that, I should think...

[Kaldin]

This is my first post so please bear with me. I have followed this case from day 1 and do correspond with Jeremy.

What I do not understand. The Log from the Police Station shows that Nevill rang and reported that his daughter (not son) had gone beserk with a gun.

Surely that alone is evidence for a retrial??

No he didn't there is no evidence of this. The log shows a call from Jeremy to the police and then an internal call between police officers and nothing else.

-----------------------------------

I disagree...

There are clearly two different messages being recorded, or referred to here, one in which a reference is made to "daughter" and the other "sister", further discrepancies between "has got one of my guns" and "the gun," and additional differences, involving reference to the age of the daughter, or  sister...

If this was just a matter of the time being recorded wrongly, as alleged, the contents would be exactly the same, only the  times would be recorded differently...

In my opinion...

I agree to disagree. 

There was no call from Nevill to the police. In my opinion.

-----------------------

Jeremy did not make the call at 3:26am, in my opinion, otherwise the only difference in the content of the message, would have been the time, 3:26am, instead of 3:36am...

Yet Jeremy's call was noted on the 3:26 call.

------------------------------------------------

You do not know when those comments were added...

There is no way that anybody can tell when those comments were added by PC West...

Lets get the facts right, so there can not be any dispute, any reference to the son, was made after PC west recorded comments from Ralph Bamber where he was speaking about his daughter, and the fact that she had got one of his guns...

Additionally...

There is information contained on that message log, about the times police cars and their occupants were dispatched to the scene, and the time of their arrival at the scene, but that doesn't mean that those details were recorded at the same time that Ralph Bamber called the cops at 3:26am...

Once Jeremy called the police at 3:36am, why shouldn't PC West make a note on the original log that the son had also contacted the police to report an incident at whf?

Was this why PC West made that second record timed at 3:36am?

Did PC West record what Jeremy told him at 3:36am, so that he also had a record of what Ralph had told him at 3:26am?

I think so...

It wasn't PC West who made a note that the son had contacted the police, it was Malcolm Bonnet who wrote that. He said that the message had been passed on by Jeremy.

[Kaldin]

There has been no explanation forthcoming from PC West to account for the differences in the body of the messages, given at 3:36am, and 3:26am, respectively, to satisfy anyones curiosity that both calls could have been made by one, and the same person. If the same person made both calls, or if both records related to the same call, and there was only a dispute about the timing of th call, the content of the message would have been exactly the same except for the time...

Definitely two different calls, made by two different people - Ralph and Jeremy...

How can the contents of the message, and the times the call was allegedly made, both be different, if the same person made the two calls, or the call was a reference to the only call made?

No, absolute nonsense. You won't convince me on this one so there isn't much point in trying.

There are logs for one call to the police and nothing more.

---------------------------

But you are completely wrong, there are two records, one timed at 3:26am, and the other timed at 3:36am - the contents of both are completely different...

If it was a reference to the same call, the only difference would be the time...

Why would PC West make two completely different and contrasting reports, about the same alleged call?

PC West didn't make two reports, he made one. Malcolm Bonnet wrote the other. PC West rang Malcolm Bonnet to pass on the message from Jeremy.

I think there's some real confusion here about who wrote which log and why.

[mike tesko]

This is my first post so please bear with me. I have followed this case from day 1 and do correspond with Jeremy.

What I do not understand. The Log from the Police Station shows that Nevill rang and reported that his daughter (not son) had gone beserk with a gun.

Surely that alone is evidence for a retrial??

No he didn't there is no evidence of this. The log shows a call from Jeremy to the police and then an internal call between police officers and nothing else.

-----------------------------------

I disagree...

There are clearly two different messages being recorded, or referred to here, one in which a reference is made to "daughter" and the other "sister", further discrepancies between "has got one of my guns" and "the gun," and additional differences, involving reference to the age of the daughter, or  sister...

If this was just a matter of the time being recorded wrongly, as alleged, the contents would be exactly the same, only the  times would be recorded differently...

In my opinion...

I agree to disagree. 

There was no call from Nevill to the police. In my opinion.

-----------------------

Jeremy did not make the call at 3:26am, in my opinion, otherwise the only difference in the content of the message, would have been the time, 3:26am, instead of 3:36am...

Yet Jeremy's call was noted on the 3:26 call.

------------------------------------------------

You do not know when those comments were added...

There is no way that anybody can tell when those comments were added by PC West...

Lets get the facts right, so there can not be any dispute, any reference to the son, was made after PC west recorded comments from Ralph Bamber where he was speaking about his daughter, and the fact that she had got one of his guns...

Additionally...

There is information contained on that message log, about the times police cars and their occupants were dispatched to the scene, and the time of their arrival at the scene, but that doesn't mean that those details were recorded at the same time that Ralph Bamber called the cops at 3:26am...

Once Jeremy called the police at 3:36am, why shouldn't PC West make a note on the original log that the son had also contacted the police to report an incident at whf?

Was this why PC West made that second record timed at 3:36am?

Did PC West record what Jeremy told him at 3:36am, so that he also had a record of what Ralph had told him at 3:26am?

I think so...

It wasn't PC West who made a note that the son had contacted the police, it was Malcolm Bonnet who wrote that. He said that the message had been passed on by Jeremy.

--------------------------------------------

Whatever...

it would be logical that once Jeremy made his call to the police at 3:36am, that a record might be added to the earlier call that the police had received from the father, at 3:26am, who informed the police that his "Daughter" had got "one of his guns" and that she was going berserk...

Sheila was not Jeremy's daughter, and the guns at whf belonged and were owned by Ralph Bamber, not Jeremy...

[mike tesko]

There has been no explanation forthcoming from PC West to account for the differences in the body of the messages, given at 3:36am, and 3:26am, respectively, to satisfy anyones curiosity that both calls could have been made by one, and the same person. If the same person made both calls, or if both records related to the same call, and there was only a dispute about the timing of th call, the content of the message would have been exactly the same except for the time...

Definitely two different calls, made by two different people - Ralph and Jeremy...

How can the contents of the message, and the times the call was allegedly made, both be different, if the same person made the two calls, or the call was a reference to the only call made?

No, absolute nonsense. You won't convince me on this one so there isn't much point in trying.

There are logs for one call to the police and nothing more.

---------------------------

But you are completely wrong, there are two records, one timed at 3:26am, and the other timed at 3:36am - the contents of both are completely different...

If it was a reference to the same call, the only difference would be the time...

Why would PC West make two completely different and contrasting reports, about the same alleged call?

PC West didn't make two reports, he made one. Malcolm Bonnet wrote the other. PC West rang Malcolm Bonnet to pass on the message from Jeremy.

I think there's some real confusion here about who wrote which log and why.

-----------------------------

Hence why the bit which was added onto the 3:26am call from Ralph to the police, makes mention of a call from the son...

[Kaldin]

Look, PC West and Malcolm Bonnet can't have both forgotten an extra phone call. Are you suggesting they lied and pretended there was only one call?

[curiousessex]

So the 7 minutes 17 seconds is a reasonable time for the journey between Goldhanger and White House Farm.

For instance this being a time for a journey which a jury would beleive most likely.

-------------------------------

Yes, and if Jeremy got to the farm at about 3:52am, he could easily have made the call to PC West at 3:36am, and left his cottage at about 3:45am, and been on the phone to the police for about 11 minutes, give or take a couple of minutes either way...

It wouldn't take long for anyone to get dressed, grab car keys and get out into the car and set off to go to the scene, as instructed by the police...

Less than a minute to do all that, I should think...

The less than a minute would all depend if Jeremy was in a hurry as would the time for a car journey from Goldhanger to White House Farm.

For me it is more likely the Telephone call from Jeremy to the Police was timed at 3.26am. (See telephone log notes of message passed from PC West to Malcolme Bonnet referring to a telephone call from the son of Neville Bamber.)

This would more comfortably fit in the 'extras' like getting dressed etc. including an 11 minute delay whilst being on hold. The 11 minutes overlaps the 3.36 am log. This time may have been noted down at the end of the call from Jeremy to PC West whilst Malcom Bonnet noted the time when PC West first made contact with Malcolm Bonnet to detail Jeremy's call whilst he was on hold)