"Womans body" seen in Kitchen through Kitchen window (PS Adams)...

[lookout]

So you'd have to be able to see round corners ?

[mike tesko]

So you'd have to be able to see round corners ?

Because two policemen looked through the window and saw the body, albeit in strained circumstances.
There is a 3D rendering of the house that demonstrates the angle at which a body could be seen.

Sorry, but you got your facts wrong!

If the two large wooden chairs were positioned, placed up tight against the internal kitchen / rear hallway door, you would not be able to say whether or not, any body which was sat upon the front chair, or the back chair could possibly have been described, as the body of 'a dead male', or the body of 'one dead female'!

[TheBrilliantMistake]

No Mike, there are no mistake.

What YOU are suggesting is 'if by some miracle the body was in the tightest blind spot, you wouldn't be able to see it'. Which would be correct. However that is not factual at all is it? Furthermore it presupposes that such a body would have to be 100% out of site and not partially sighted. Again, that's a very tall order.

Add to that, there was clear confusion about the identification anyway.

You can't have it both ways - that magically TWO bodies were seen, then say 'but at least one was totally hidden'. IF as you claim two bodies were seen, then both bodies must have been visible.
By that logic, Nevill, either alone, or with Shelia was visible - agreed?

[Kaldin]

I do find the position of Nevill's body very strange indeed, but the wounds on his head bled into the coal scuttle so he must have been in that position just after he died.

There is another chair near the door which appears to be blocking it though. However, it might be an issue of photographic angles or whatever.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

I do find the position of Nevill's body very strange indeed, but the wounds on his head bled into the coal scuttle so he must have been in that position just after he died.

There is another chair near the door which appears to be blocking it though. However, it might be an issue of photographic angles or whatever.

I too find it quite curious - I have sometimes wondered if it was posed symbolically by the killer. I guess you have to come to rest in some position, and in this case it was rather an unfortunate one. It is curious, but that doesn't lead my thoughts to anything untoward. His pyjamas down was also curious, but as far as I know there were no sexual aspects. Again - either purely unfortunate, or some last act of ridicule by the killer?

[Kaldin]

I too find it quite curious - I have sometimes wondered if it was posed symbolically by the killer. I guess you have to come to rest in some position, and in this case it was rather an unfortunate one. It is curious, but that doesn't lead my thoughts to anything untoward. His pyjamas down was also curious, but as far as I know there were no sexual aspects. Again - either purely unfortunate, or some last act of ridicule by the killer?

They probably fell down by themselves. Those traditional pyjamas have a tendency to do that.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

They probably fell down by themselves. Those traditional pyjamas have a tendency to do that.

I have tried that excuse once too often. None of the ladies believed it!

[mike tesko]

No Mike, there are no mistake.

What YOU are suggesting is 'if by some miracle the body was in the tightest blind spot, you wouldn't be able to see it'. Which would be correct. However that is not factual at all is it? Furthermore it presupposes that such a body would have to be 100% out of site and not partially sighted. Again, that's a very tall order.

Add to that, there was clear confusion about the identification anyway.

You can't have it both ways - that magically TWO bodies were seen, then say 'but at least one was totally hidden'. IF as you claim two bodies were seen, then both bodies must have been visible.
By that logic, Nevill, either alone, or with Shelia was visible - agreed?

After my sudden release from custody in July 1990, I personally visited whf along Pages lane...

I ventured toward the rear entrance door via which the original six man raid team entered the farmhouse door!

Of particular interest to me on this occasion, was the view available to any observer stood outside the kitchen window peering into the kitchen, itself...

[Kaldin]

I have tried that excuse once too often. None of the ladies believed it!

 

[mike tesko]

After my sudden release from custody in July 1990, I personally visited whf along Pages lane...

I ventured toward the rear entrance door via which the original six man raid team entered the farmhouse door!

Of particular interest to me on this occasion, was the view available to any observer stood outside the kitchen window peering into the kitchen, itself...

I pressed my face tightly against the kitchen window, peering in two particular regions of the kitchen - first consideration involved whether or not had Sheila originally been made from that vantage point, outside the main kitchen window, and I was satisfied that such an observation could have been made accordingly (had she been sat on the front chair, the one in front of the other chair upon which had been slumped Ralph Neville Bamber..

  YOU WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SEE THE SECOND BODY FROM THE VANTAGE POINT OF BEING OUTSIDE THE KITCHEN WINDOW LOOKING IN, WITH ONE CHAIR(closest to the kitchen window)OCCUPIED BY SHEILA, AND WITH RALPH NEVILLE BAMBER SAT SLUMPED ON THE SECOND CHAIR BEHIND HER- from the vantage point of anyone being outside the kitchen window who was (as I did) trying to see what could have been seen inside the kitchen it was blatantly obvious to me, that if there had been two bodies, one sat on a chair nearest the viewpoint from outside the kitchen window (Sheila Caffell) and the other body slumped on a second wooden chair behind (Neville Bamber) that you could not possibly have been able to see the second body slumped on the second chair behind Sheila Caffell by anyone peering into that part of the kitchen from outside the kitchen window!

Next, I considered for the possibility that Neville Bambers body was already slumped and had been balanced precariously over the top of a second wooden chair, with his head conveniently placed inside the metal rim of a coal hod close to the left hand side of the kitchen aga (as viewed by someone like me peering in through that kitchen window)? It was apparent to me, that had Neville Bambers body already been in the position as described and by reference to the position of his body as shown in disclosed crime scene photographs, that anybody standing outside the kitchen window peering in, would have been unable to see Neville Bambers body at all, because the kitchen sink and its corresponding and surrounding kitchen worktop obstructed or obstrucks such a view...

[mike tesko]

I concluded, therefore, that any firearm officer who had peered into the main kitchen from the vantage point of standing outside the kitchen window peering in, could not have seen the body of Ralph Neville Bambers in any event, be it that he was sat on a  chair behind Sheila who was sat on the second wooden chair nearest to the kitchen window, and that if by the time of the sighting Neville Bambers body had already been balanced precariously over the toppled front wooden chair with his head in the coial hod, that you would also not have been able to see his body in order to mistakenly identify it as the body of a woman..

[mike tesko]

No Mike, there are no mistake. I agree, I have made no mistake, as you put it. You consider your own position and what you are advocating..

What YOU are suggesting is 'if by some miracle the body was in the tightest blind spot, you wouldn't be able to see it'.Yes,, you wouldn't be able to see the body that is positioned in 'the no see anything there area'.. Which would be correct. However that is not factual Yes, but you are absolutely wrong, because Neville Bambers body could not possibly have been seen by anybody from the vantage point of being outside the kitchen window looking in, whether or not he was sat on the back chair against the inner door, or already tumbled over with his head in the rim of the metal coal hod - since, you cannot see anything in the far corner of the kitchen whilst being outside the kitchen window, peering in, because the angle of vision is too a cute. for example in the area where the opening edge of the internal door is positioned when closed, and secondly, if Neville Bambers body was already toppled over with his head in the coal bucket, the height and dimensions of the kitchen sink and corresponding kitchen worktop would act like a physical barrier and prevent anyone from seeing that which was claimed to have been seen... at all is it? Furthermore it presupposes that such a body would have to be 100% out of site No, it does not, but in any event nobody could have seen Neville Bambers body, whether or not his body was seated on the second chair behind Sheila on the front chair, or even if by the time of the alleged sighting of a womans body, Neville Bambers body had already been toppled over, as described. I have been to the farmhouse (with Jeremy Bambers approval, and I have looked into the kitchen through that kitchen window, and there is no doubt that no-one stood outside that kitchen window and upon peering into the kitchen they saw the body of Neveille Bamber in any configuration. Furthermore, because of the nature of the incident, no police officer would press his or her face against the window glass in order to peer into the kitchen because of fear that they might get shot at...and not partially sighted. I disagree, but I would add that it is a bit of a tall order (as you put it) for a police officer (not one but two of them) to press his face against the glass of the kitchen window and peer into the kitchen in order to get a maximum view of that far corner of the kitchen, at peril of being shot at! Since, in order to get such a maximum view through that kitchen window the two officers would have to be stood in full view of the window viewpoint, and expose themselves to the prospect of being shot at by a crazed gun person. I don't buy into such nonsense, but you are welcome to believe whatever it is that you want to believe in...  Again, that's a very tall order. Yeah, I agree, that what you are proposing and advocating is a very tall order!

Add to that, there was clear confusion about the identification anyway. No, not really, it was a straight forward matter - cops cautiously peered in through the kitchen window and saw Sheila sat on the front chair! When the cops eventually managed to push their way into the kitchen and toppled over the body of Neveille Bamber, and Sheila reacted by grabbing the barrel of the rifle which first appeared around the opening edge of the internal kitchen door, and she inadvertently got shot diagonally across the neck and was presumed to have died, the raid team passed information via their personal radios, that two bodies had been forund upon entry to the kitchen, Nevilee Bamber and Sheila Caffell...

You can't have it both ways I don't want it both ways, I am saying it as it was, and is...- that magically TWO bodies were seen, But, that's just it, I am not claiming that two bodies were seen from outside the kitchen window prior to entry into the premises was made, you are falsely trying to make out the case that that is what I have been advocating. If cops looked through the kitchen window at all, they only saw one body, the circumstances of which make it perfectly clear that it was the body of a female, and not the body of Neville Bamber! then say 'but at least one was totally hidden'. Anyone peerin g into the kitchen, from outside the kitchen window would not have been aware of a second body beingh present in the kitchen because they could not possibly have had access to a view which would have confirmed that, or this, one way or another.. IF as you claim two bodies were seen, Please, stop trying to put words into my mouth, I have never claimed that the cops outside the kitchen window saw two bodies, inside the kitchen before police entered the farmhouse... then both bodies must have been visible. IMPOSSIBLE, the only person that could possibly have been visible to any firearm officer outside the kitchen window peering in, risking getting his face blown off, was the female body mentioned, none other then Sheila Caffell..
By that logic, Nevill, either alone, or with Shelia was visible - agreed? No, only one body was visible to any officer standing outside the kitchen window, daring to peer into the kitchen so as to get the maximum angle of view into the far corner of the kitchen where the internal door was / is situated. If the police officers ahd seen two bodies at that early stage, they would have stated that they had seen two bodies, not the body of a woman...

[mike tesko]

The area in which the chair upon which Neville Bamber was sat was clearly unobservable from anyone standing outside the kitchen window peering in...

Just for a moment - consider the width of the internal kitchen door, and bear in mind that just about more than half the width of the door (from right to left) was not visible to anyone standing outside the kitchen window peering into the kitchen  (see Attachment)…

Two Chairs, two bodies pressed into the furthest corner of that part of the main kitchen, from the vantage point of anyone standing outside the kitchen window, with Sheila sat on the front chair (partially visible) and Neville Bambers body concealed behind Sheila..

Now...

let us replay that which police have reported and documented...

The body of a woman in kitchen, seen by two police officers through the kitchen window..

Cops have not yet entered the farmhouse..

Cops then force entry into the farmhouse

Internal kitchen / back hallway door blocked off by something heavy behind it on the kitchen side of that door...

Beyond this door, are two bodies sat upon two chairs, the body of Neville Bamber (closest to the internal door) previously unseen by officers peering in via the kitchen window, and in front of him, his daughter, Sheila Caffell ( the woman's body observed by the officers through the kitchen window prior to entry into the premises being forcibly gained)..

Neville Bamber, was at this stage dead as a dodo, Sheila was resting...

The firearm Officers forced the internal door - open...

A consequence of this, was that the bodies of Neville Bamber, and Sheila Caffell were both displaced and tumbled over...

Evidence supporting this can be viewed by looking at the crime scene photographs which show the supposed final resting place of Neville Bamber (with his head in the coal hod, etc), his body could not possibly have been visible to anyone standing outside the kitchen window, peering in, either with him sat upon his chair against the internal kitchen door, or after his body was forcibly toppled over as shown in so called crime scene photographs...

This resulted in the following - the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female found upon entry

A murder, and a suicide! 

[mike tesko]

By the same token, anyone sitting or standing in that 'blindspot' area would not be able to see anyone standing outside the kitchen window who might be trying to peer into the kitchen!

[mike tesko]

The Cops, Jeremy and myself, and the CCRC know the truth of this matter, The other parties mentioned have got the Crime Scene Video, proving that the cops arranged to crime scene in the kitchen, main bedroom and the childrens bedroom..

Senior officers from Chelmsford police Headquarters, staged THE DEATH SCENES inside the farm prior to handing over the farmhouse to the second team of SOCO (Cook, Davidson, Hammersley and Bird. If these coppers were the only SOCO team attending the scene, they would have been allowed into the farmhouse immediately, but they were kept waiting whilst senior officers from Headquarters and their own SOCO team set the crime scenes - by that stage, the headquarters SOCO team had already taken many photographs and of course the crime scene video which shows that prior to the handing over of the crime scene to the Witham SOCO team at 10am, that bodies of victims, the rifles and shotgun had previously been in different positions...

The CCRC needs to be disbanded, they are as corrupt as the dodgy cops that frame innocent victims...

They have got all the evidence, but refuse to act upon it, because their prime concern is to try and protect the image of the Criminal Justice system, and the role of police officers in investigations...

Sack the lot of 'em, put them on the dole with barely any money to live off...